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Question about Elfwine....

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BlossomofGondor



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:28 am    Post subject: Question about Elfwine.... Reply with quote

So I've been looking a lot at the Rohirrim lately, and I've noticed that there's really nothing about Elfwine the son of Eomer. All that I can find is that he closely resembled Prince Imrahil, thus called The Fair, and ruled after his father. Does anyone know his year of birth? Or did Tolkien never write it down?
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NancyBrooke
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Question about Elfwine.... Reply with quote

BlossomofGondor wrote:
So I've been looking a lot at the Rohirrim lately, and I've noticed that there's really nothing about Elfwine the son of Eomer. All that I can find is that he closely resembled Prince Imrahil, thus called The Fair, and ruled after his father. Does anyone know his year of birth? Or did Tolkien never write it down?

The definitive source, in The Tale of Years, says only:
Quote:
In the last year of the Third Age he [Eomer] wedded Lothíriel, daughter of Imrahil. Their son Elfwine the Fair ruled after him.

So, no, I don't think Tolkien ever noted Elfwine's birth specifically. I couldn't even find an explanation of his nickname (and it seems to me odd his resemblance to a presumably dark-haired man would garner him "fair").

So I think you can choose to put Elfwine's birth anywhere you like, but most likely in the very first few years of the Fourth Age.

Anybody else?

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Alassante
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about Elfwine.... Reply with quote

NancyBrooke wrote:
I couldn't even find an explanation of his nickname (and it seems to me odd his resemblance to a presumably dark-haired man would garner him "fair").


Tolkien did that a few times. Celegorm was known as the fair because of his good looks not his hair color. (although there is a lot of debate on his hair color) Haleth is gonna come and Butt Kick me now - she says blonde, I say brunette. Dior was also known as 'the Fair'. Since he was the son of Luthien and Beren I can't imagine him being fair haired.

I couldn't find a date for Elfwine's birth.

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NancyBrooke
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: ! Reply with quote

Alassante wrote:
NancyBrooke wrote:
I couldn't even find an explanation of his nickname (and it seems to me odd his resemblance to a presumably dark-haired man would garner him "fair").


Tolkien did that a few times. Celegorm was known as the fair ... Dior was also known as 'the Fair'.

Ha! The Encyclopedia of Arda has an entry exclusively for "The Fair" listing 12 citations, including Celegorm, Elfwine, Boromir, and Nimloth (they omit Dior, though Hmmm )!

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/f/fair.html

Enjoy.

(sorry, Blossom: didn't mean to hijack the thread but couldn't resist that multiplying bit of trivia.)

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NeumeIndil



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been through every primary and secondary source I have on these guys, in part to answer this question... no indication of his age exists in canon or fanon (a commonly accepted assumption among fans) that I've seen in 3 years of rummaging.
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Alassante
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My bad - Dior was Dior the Beautiful not the Fair.

From Wikipedia

Quote:
He was also called Eluchíl which means "Heir of Elu", Ausir, "The Wealthy", and Aranel, "The Noble Elf". His name probably means "Successor". Furthermore he was hailed as "Dior the beautiful" apparently since his mother had been the most beautiful of all Elves and Men.


They don't mention that he was made more beautiful because of the fact he was wearing Silmaril on a necklace!

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ElenaTiriel



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about Elfwine.... Reply with quote

BlossomofGondor wrote:
... I've noticed that there's really nothing about Elfwine the son of Eomer.... Does anyone know his year of birth?


Hi Blossom,

Everything that I could find about Elfwine is in his HASA bio at http://henneth-annun.net/resources/bios_view.cfm?SCID=444. I suspect it is no more than you found....

There was no birth date even in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), which does list the birth dates of Imrahil's children -- in the same family tree where Elfwinë appears. Curses, foiled again!

- Barbara
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ElenaTiriel



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about Elfwine.... Reply with quote

Alassante wrote:
NancyBrooke wrote:
I couldn't even find an explanation of his nickname (and it seems to me odd his resemblance to a presumably dark-haired man would garner him "fair").


Tolkien did that a few times. Celegorm was known as the fair because of his good looks not his hair color....


Agreed. Tolkien consistently seems to have used the dictionary definition of "fair" that means "pleasing in appearance; attractive", rather than "of a light hue; not dark". Even of Elanor Gamgee, who actually was blonde, Tolkien says:
Quote:
She became known as 'the Fair' because of her beauty; many said that she looked more like an elf-maid than a hobbit. She had golden hair, which had been very rare in the Shire; but two others of Samwise's daughters were also golden-haired....

The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix B, The Tale of Years


And there is no mention that her blonde sisters were also called The Fair.

I wonder whether it's possible that the "light hue" meaning is of more recent usage?

- Barbara
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dolarabee
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: ! Reply with quote

NancyBrooke wrote:
Ha! The Encyclopedia of Arda has an entry exclusively for "The Fair" <snip> Boromir

Mmmm... ::sigh::

NancyBrooke wrote:
(sorry, Blossom: didn't mean to hijack the thread but couldn't resist)

Neither could I! Very Happy

But back on track, even my trusty Thain's Book got nothing the other sources didn't have: http://www.tuckborough.net/rohirrim.html#Elfwine

do.

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BlossomofGondor



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your help, guys! Smile
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BlossomofGondor



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way....Imrahil had dark hair and sea-grey, didn't he? (According to Thain's Book...Love that site!) And Elfwine was called the Fair, because he looked like Imrahil, who was a descendent of Elves, or something... So does that mean that Elfwine had dark hair, too?
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ElenaTiriel



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlossomofGondor wrote:
By the way....Imrahil had dark hair and sea-grey, didn't he?... And Elfwine was called the Fair, because he looked like Imrahil, who was a descendent of Elves, or something... So does that mean that Elfwine had dark hair, too?


Yes, I interpret the various hints as meaning that both Imrahil and Elfwine have dark hair and grey eyes.

There is a note that Éomer was taller than the average Rohir, and his family sometimes had dark hair, because of their ancestress Morwen of Lossarnach (who was distantly related to the Princes of Dol Amroth). So Elfwine got the gene from both sides of his family tree.

- Barbara
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Jerett



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Gerd Reply with quote

If you are still looking for it then you might go and try to find it through the guys at the paperial. They have always come through with all of the work that I asked them to do.
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