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Viv
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:24 pm    Post subject: Smokin Reply with quote

All righty, about the hobbit habit...

Do elves smoke? And what precisely is it that hobbits smoke? Tobacco? Would that -- like chocolate and other goodies -- have come from Numenor?
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SecretKeeper



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Smokin Reply with quote

Viv wrote:
All righty, about the hobbit habit...

Do elves smoke? And what precisely is it that hobbits smoke? Tobacco? Would that -- like chocolate and other goodies -- have come from Numenor?


Well, do you see elves smoking a pipe? Hobbits smoke Old Toby Very Happy probably an ancient form of tobacco. Probably Old Toby (tobacco) came from Numenor in some parts or it could have been a natural vegetation with properties that the hobbits found suitable to smoke. I suggest searching around for it and shtuffs.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old toby, as far as I remember, came from Numenor originally, but I think the hobbits were the first ones to actually think of sticking it in a pipe and smoking it. Since a lot of the plants on Numenor were gifts of the elves of Tol Eressea, that would make me think that maybe the elves didn't smoke, or at least didn't smoke pipeweed Wink I have to go to work in a bit so I've not got time to find the textual reference to that, but I'm pretty sure that was what I read.
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ellisk



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what the Thain's Book Encyclopedia of Middle Earth says about pipe weed (including sources at the bottom):

Quote:
The art of smoking pipe-weed was invented by Hobbits. Pipe-weed was put in the bowl of a clay or wooden pipe with long stem through which one inhaled the smoke of the burning leaves. This custom spread among Dwarves, Men, and even Wizards, and it is still practiced today.

Most of what is known about pipe-weed comes from Herblore of the Shire by Meriadoc Brandybuck. Pipe-weed is a plant of the genus Nicotiana. The plant was probably not native to Middle-earth and may have been brought from over the Sea by the Men of Numenor. It grew abundantly in Gondor, though it was known mainly for its fragrant smell and the idea of smoking it apparently did not occur to Men. The plant was probably carried north up the Greenway, by accident or design, and came to grow around the village of Bree. The Hobbits of Bree may have been the first to smoke the plant in pipes, and the Prancing Pony in Bree became a center of the art of pipe smoking.

The first true pipe-weed was grown by Tobold Hornblower, who most likely obtained his first specimens from Bree around 2670. He bred and cultivated the plant, which flourished in the warm, sheltered climate around Longbottom in the Southfarthing of the Shire. One of the most popular varieties of pipe-weed, Old Toby, was named after him. Longbottom Leaf and Southern Star were two other popular types of leaf of the Shire, while Southlinch was a variety grown in Bree.

During their long journey, the members of the Fellowship frequently took comfort in smoking pipes. Strider the Ranger was smoking a pipe when Frodo first saw him. Gandalf smoked to help himself think when he was uncertain of the way to take in Moria. Sam remembered to pack pipe-weed when the Fellowship left Rivendell (though he forgot rope); later, near Mordor, he dreamed he was searching for his pipe and realized he had no weed left.

Merry and Pippin were able to replenish their supply from a cache of Longbottom Leaf they found in the storerooms of Isengard. They shared their discovery with the Three Hunters, who had at last caught up to them. At their first meeting, Merry promised to tell King Theoden about the history of smoking, but he never got the chance. After the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, where the King was slain, Merry thought he might never smoke again, but Aragorn told him to have a pipe in memory of his liege.

The mystery of the pipe-weed found at Isengard was solved when the Hobbits returned home: Saruman had been dealing with Lotho Sackville-Baggins. Lotho had begun by selling pipe-weed from his lands in the Southfarthing but had expanded his business interests. Soon there was no leaf to be had by Hobbits in the Shire. Rough-looking Men started to take over and then Saruman himself arrived. But after the Scouring of the Shire, in the year 1420 S.R., there was a bountiful pipe-weed harvest and things returned to normal.

Other Names:
Also called leaf and weed; called in Gondor sweet galenas and westmansweed.

Sources:
The Fellowship of the Ring: "Prologue: Concerning Pipe-weed," p. 17-18; "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony," p. 168; "The Ring Goes South," p. 293; "A Journey in the Dark," p. 327
The Two Towers: "The Road to Isengard," p. 163-4; "Flotsam and Jetsam," p. 165-9; "Journey to the Cross-Roads," p. 308
The Return of the King: "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," p. 118; "The Houses of Healing," p. 145-7; "Many Partings," p. 262; "Homeward Bound," p. 270; "The Scouring of the Shire," p. 279, 291-2; "The Grey Havens," p. 304
Unfinished Tales: "The Hunt for the Ring - Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire," p. 348-52


This is directly from "Concerning Pipe-weed" :

Quote:
There is another astonishing thing about Hobbits of old that must be mentioned, an astonishing habit: they imbibed or inhaled, through pipes of clay or wood, the smoke of the burning leaves of a herb, which they called "pipe-weed" or "leaf," a variety probably of "Nicotiana." A great deal of mystery surrounds the origin of this peculiar custom, or 'art' as the Hobbits preferred to call it. All that could be discovered about it in antiquity was put together by Meriadoc Brandybuck (later Master of Buckland), and since he and the tobacco of the Southfarthing play a part in the history that follows, his remarks in the introduction to his "Herblore of the Shire" may be quoted.

'This,' he says, 'is the one art that we can certainly claim to be our own invention. When Hobbits first began to smoke is not known, all the legends and family histories take it for granted; for ages folk in the Shire smoked various herbs, some fouler, some sweeter. But all accounts agree that Tobold Hornblower of Longbottom in the Southfarthing first grew the true pipe-weed in his gardens in the days of Isengrim the Second, about the year 1070 of Shire-reckoning. The best home-grown still comes from that district, especially the varieties now known as Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, and Southern Star.

'How Old Toby came by the plant is not recorded, for to his dying day he would not tell. He knew much about herbs, but he was no traveller. It is said that in his youth he went often to Bree, though he certainly never went further from the Shire than that. It is thus quite possible that he learned of this plant in Bree, where now, at any rate, it grows well on the south slopes of the hill. The Bree-hobbits claim to have been the first actual smokers of the pipe-weed. They claim, of course, to have done everything before the people of the Shire, whom they refer to as "colonists"; but in this case their claim is, I think, likely to be true. And certainly it was from Bree that the art of smoking the genuine weed spread in the recent centuries among Dwarves and such other folk, Rangers, Wizards, or wanderers, as still passed to and fro through that ancient road-meeting. The home and centre of the an is thus to be found in the old inn of Bree, "The Prancing Pony," that has been kept by the family of Butterbur from time beyond record.

'All the same, observations that I have made on my own many journeys south have convinced me that the weed itself is not native to our parts of the world, but came northward from the lower Anduin, whither it was, I suspect, originally brought over Sea by the Men of Westernesse. It grows abundantly in Gondor, and there is richer and larger than in the North, where it is never found wild, and flourishes only in warm sheltered places like Longbottom. The Men of Gondor call it "sweet galenas," and esteem it only for the fragrance of its flowers. From that land it must have been carried up the Greenway during the long centuries between the coming of Elendil and our own day. But even the Dunedain of Gondor allow us this credit: Hobbits first put it into pipes. Not even the Wizards first thought of that before we did. Though one Wizard that I knew took up the art long ago, and became as skilful in it as in all other things that he put his mind to.'


As for elves and smoking. I did a text search of Unfinished Tales and the trilogy for 'smoke' 'smoking' and 'pipe weed' and I didn't find any connection between any elf and mention of smoking--positive or negative. Of course most fan fictions depict Legolas as being offended by smoking. And we certainly see references to Men, Dwarves and one Wizard smoking but never mention of an elf. I think it is safe to assume that elves don't smoke.

Hope this helps.

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Viv
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellisk, this is fabulous! Thank you so much!
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ellisk



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viv wrote:
Ellisk, this is fabulous! Thank you so much!


I'm happy if it could be a help. Smile

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ellisk



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I did a text search because I was certain that I remembered Legolas saying something about smoking once. I must have clicked next too quickly. Here is how Legolas reacts to Gimli, Aragorn, Merry and Pippen smoking after they eat and while they are telling the story of how the Ents destroyed Isengard:
Quote:

From: Flotsam and Jetsam

He produced a small leather bag full of tobacco. 'We have heaps of it,' he said; 'and you can all pack as much as you wish, when we go. We did some salvage-work this morning, Pippin and I. There are lots of things floating about. It was Pippin who found two small barrels, washed up out of some cellar or store-house, I suppose. When we opened them, we found they were filled with this: as fine a pipe-weed as you could wish for, and quite unspoilt.'
Gimli took some and rubbed it in his palms and sniffed it. 'It feels good, and it smells good,' he said.
'It is good!' said Merry. 'My dear Gimli, it is Longbottom Leaf! There were the Hornblower brandmarks on the barrels, as plain as plain. How it came here, I can't imagine. For Saruman's private use. I fancy. I never knew that it went so far abroad. But it comes in handy now?'
'It would,' said Gimli, 'if I had a pipe to go with it. Alas, I lost mine in Moria, or before. Is there no pipe in all your plunder?'
'No, I am afraid not,' said Merry. 'We have not found any, not even here in the guardrooms. Saruman kept this dainty to himself. it seems. And I don't think it would be any use knocking on the doors of Orthanc to beg a pipe of him! We shall have to share pipes. as good friends must at a pinch.'
'Half a moment!' said Pippin. Putting his hand inside the breast of his jacket he pulled out a little soft wallet on a string. 'I keep a treasure or two near my skin, as precious as Rings to me. Here's one: my old wooden pipe. And here's another: an unused one. I have carried it a long way,, though I don't know why. I never really expected to find any pipe-weed on the journey, when my own ran out. But now it comes in useful after all.' He held up a small pipe with a wide flattened bowl, and handed it to Gimli. 'Does that settle the score between us?' he said. 'Settle it!' cried Gimli. 'Most noble hobbit, it leaves me deep in your debt.'
'Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing!' said Legolas.

'We will come with you,' said Aragorn.
They went out and seated themselves upon the piled stones before the gateway. They could see far down into the valley now; the mists were lifting and floating away upon the breeze.
'Now let us take our ease here for a little!' said Aragorn. 'We will sit on the edge of ruin and talk, as Gandalf says, while he is busy elsewhere. I feel a weariness such as I have seldom felt before.' He wrapped his grey cloak about him, hiding his mail-shirt, and stretched out his long legs. Then he lay back and sent from his lips a thin stream of smoke.
'Look!' said Pippin. 'Strider the Ranger has come back!'
'He has never been away,' said Aragorn. 'I am Strider and Dunadan too, and I belong both to Gondor and the North.'

They smoked in silence for a while, and the sun shone on them; slanting into the valley from among white clouds high in the West. Legolas lay still, looking up at the sun and sky with steady eyes, and singing softly to himself. At last he sat up. 'Come now!' he said. 'Time wears on, and the mists are blowing away, or would if you strange folk did not wreathe yourselves in smoke. What of the tale?'


So it seems that Legolas thinks that people who smoke are strange, at least. Glad I found that. It was bugging me. Yes, I know I'm a total geek. Smile

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Eyborg



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread...
By the way, I wonder... do female hobbits never smoke? Tolkien never mentions it, but then again, he doesn't mention them not doing it, either. Of course, when Tolkien was young, it was mostly men who smoked pipes, but nowadays women seem to smoke tobacco (although it's cigarettes nowadays) more than men. - I'm just wondering since in most hobbit fanfics I've read, all male hobbits seem to both smoke & drink ale, while the female hobbits are all "straight-edge"... Rolling Eyes
But think about it... can't you just imagine Merry and Estella smoking together in bed after sex? Twisted Evil
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SilverMoonLady



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know... Sharing an ale, totally:) But it does seem a little odd to the imagination, just because the "picture" doesn't exist in (at least) my head.Smile)) And there really is something about kissing a guy that smokes that is a total wow, even for a non-smoker like myself:)
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Eyborg



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's the thing... I hate kissing guys that smoke! Eek! Shocked In real life I hate smoking and even the smell of it... Evil or Very Mad
But this is fantasy we're talking about. Wink So how about hobbitesses smoking some kind of "lady pipes", you know... Marlene Dietrich style? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone can pull it off, darling, it's you:)))

Now go write it! *shoooos E back to her desk*

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Eyborg



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll see what I can do about that... Very Happy

*imagines Estella as a hobbit version of Marlene Dietrich... down at the Green Dragon, singing something with a sexy husky voice*

Twisted Evil

(BTW I sometimes imagine Merry as a hobbit version of Tom Waits... LOL)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm... nah, Frank Sinatra class is more to my mind. Gentlemanly but not a priss...*grin*
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Eyborg



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SilverMoonLady wrote:
hmmm... nah, Frank Sinatra class is more to my mind. Gentlemanly but not a priss...*grin*

Ummm... that sounds more like Pippin to me. Very Happy

"If I can make it there
I'm gonna make it anywhere
It's up to you,
Gondor, Gondoooooor...!!!"

Very Happy

(I think I read a song parody like this, somewhere...)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Not bad, not bad.... Just stuck in my head as the epitome of class and romance, mostly from the songs (which I hear a lot at work)... Me is a silly romantic sap, despite all the smut & angst. Very Happy
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