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Spiritualism...what do you believe in?

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SecretKeeper



Joined: 12 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Spiritualism...what do you believe in? Reply with quote

I thought that it would be cool to bring up this topic after Eruanna posted a thread in the Movies section called: "For Legolas/Orlando fans".

There was a bit of discussion going on about Orlando and Kate's splitting up (which is sad but then again Twisted Evil) but also a discussion about Soka Gakkai (Very Happy many thanks to Eruanna).

That got me thinking...what do members at OSA think about religion?

I also think that this would be great to discuss different religions, history of religion and how influential religion/spirituality is in all aspects of our lives (depending on circumstance of course).

Personally, I believe that someone or something is up there looking out for us. I call him "God" but for others it could be different. God, he's looking out for me and even when things go wrong, it's his way of telling me to look deeper. I read somewhere, and it has stayed with me, suffering/pain...those two emotions, exceptions are there to help us build character. To find our strengths and that it's okay to have a weakness.

I also believe in re-incarnation, parallel universes (there's a lot of galaxies out there other than our own...it's only logical to think that there are parallel universes), angels, demons, wishes and humour.

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Eyborg



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a Christian... Lutheran to be exact. I believe in a God who created the universe and everything in it (be it 6 days or 6 billion years... I don't really care). I believe in Jesus Christ as a true man and a true God, and that he died for the sins of mankind & rose again. And I believe that the true Christian church is everybody who believe in God & His son Jesus Christ, no matter what denomination they belong to. - I also respect other religions, and I believe that it's not my place to tell who goes to Hell and who doesn't (when I say Hell I mean a realm far away from God - where God is not). Only God knows that.
I also believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but still 66 different books written by men, so it has to be interpreted in context with the culture & history the writers come from. So I'm not really a "fundamentalist". However, in the past I've been involved in charismatic/Pentecostal movements, so I tend to mix doctrines together... Very Happy
That's about it... Smile
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ellisk



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I practice Buddhism and I was raised a Roman Catholic. I do not see the two as mutually exclusive and neither does my Dharma teacher (the leader of my Buddhist spiritual life). Buddhism teaches that every religion is right when it teaches us to be 'good people.' Buddhists believe that Jesus and Muhammad and the other great figures in religious texts definitely existed and were very great people that people should follow especially if that helps them live a more compassionate life.

They also believe in an Indian prince named Siddhartha Gautama. When he was born, it was foreseen that he would either be a great ruler or a great religious leader. Wanting his son to be a great ruler, his father protected his son from religion and from seeing anything negative. At the age of thirteen, Gautama went out of his father's palace with his attendant Channa four times and came across the "four sights": an old crippled man, a diseased man, a decaying corpse, and finally an ascetic. He realized that the world was full of suffering and became an ascetic himself. He studied asceticism for six years and realized that it was not better than the indulgent life of a prince. So he sat under a Bodhi tree and vowed not to leave that spot until he found the right path. There, he discovered the 'middle way'--a path that is not self-indulgent or self-abusive. The 'path' he found, he taught to others and it became known as the Dharma. It includes the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eight Fold Path. He did not call himself a god and Buddhism does not worship him or any other particular god.

In the Western world, many Buddhist teachers suggest that people interested in Buddhism learn its precepts and follow them inside their own original religion. I personally chose, after much thought, to actually become Buddhist.

There are as many types of Buddhism as there are denominations of Christianity. Buddha said that was important because the teachings should be adapted to the people learning them so that they could understand them best.

My Dharma teacher is a western man (a qualified Lama) who studied in India for many years so our practice is Tibetan but is very westernized. Many of the people who practice with us do not have any intention of being 'Buddhist.' They enjoy the meditations and the philosophy and feel it makes their lives better/less stressful. A Buddhist would say that they are on the path to enlightment, if that is what they have achieved through practice. Smile

In our temple, the teacher leads us on meditations that help us focus on compassionate every day living, that help us explore and understand the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eight Fold Path and help us escape the cycle of suffering caused by the desires inspired by the world.

If anyone may be curious, the Four Noble Truths are:
1. There is suffering/stress in the world;
2. Suffering/stress is caused by desire;
3. There is a way to escape suffering/stress;
4. The way to escape suffering/stress is the Noble Eight Fold Path

The Eighfold Noble Path says:
1. We must have the right understanding of what causes suffering;
2. We must have the right thought--to be focused on renouncing the causes of suffering;
3. We must practice right speech by avoiding abusive speech, lying, and idle speech;
4. We must practice right action by avoiding all actions that harm other living beings;
5. We must practice right livelihood by abandoning harmful livelihoods;
6. We must make the right effort to avoid unskillfull words or deeds or thoughts;
7. We must practice right mindfulness by being mindful of our deeds and words and speech and thoughts;
8. We must have the right concentration away from things that cause suffering

I do believe in reincarnation, but that took a great deal of thought and some direct expereince because that was originally a very foreign concept to me.

I have done a poor job talking about this and I really just focused on my own experiences. If anyone is interested in learning anything about Buddhism, I recommend Awakening the Buddhist Heart Within. It is not a book that tries to convert anyone to any other religion. it is not realy a religious book at all. It is just a conversational discussion about the Buddhist philosophy.

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Eruanna



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:40 am    Post subject: Religion Reply with quote

Secret Keeper: Thanks for starting a new string! ellisk, thank you for the GREAT information you shared.

I (don't laugh, now!) tend to be between Roman Catholicism and Buddhism. That Japanese/Irish thing! LOL! Laughing (Heck, the PJ film elves look like a strange lot--Irish people in oriental robes decorated with Celtic interlaced knots! Go figure!)

Many religions have SO much in common. They just use different names/labels for the different tenets. I only wish we could have world peace without splitting hairs over our differences. Crying or Very sad

Buddhism regards all life as sacred, down to the trees and earthworms. (This was shown in that Dalai Lama movie starring Brad Pitt...) The Dalai Lama was building a movie house, and had his monks turning over the soil to relocate as many insects and worms so they would not be killed by the building of the theatre.

Catholicism has Saint Francis, who saw the natural world of plants and beasts as a manifestation of the Creator. He and his followers often slept in stables with the beasts, insisting they not be thrust out into the cold on his behalf.

Finally, the good professor himself was a Catholic of GREAT spirituality. He often caught spiders in his house to be removed outside! Tolkien was an INCREDIBLE man! (As a biographical aside, he was almost killed as a toddler in S. Africa by a spider bite. Ungoliant, Shelob and all! But he still loved God's creatures.)

I find myself moving snails and earthworms back into the grass after a large rain. (There's a trick to this--snails you can pick up by the shell, whereas with worms, it is best to use a stiff piece of paper. If I do this in a public place, people look at me strangely! LOL! Laughing They think I am mad! Plus, with three dogs and two teenagers...

Kudos for Orlando being a Buddhist, and also keeping this relatively low-key. The Soka Gakkai sect is a movement (I think) centered on Kosen Rufu, or attaining not only one's own Buddha nature, for also striving for world peace.

Ah, and the elves get recycled back into Arda. They are reincarnated, so to speak. They are (I think one writer put it) like Bodhisattvas of Middle Earth. These are enlightened beings that delay their own enlightenment of reincarnation to suffer being reborn until evil and suffering are taken out of the world. No wonder Glorfindel had to return--his job in Arda was not yet done! The Bodhisattva's fate, like the elves, is tied to the world.

Many celebrities are Buddhist if one looks closely. Most of them do not parade their faith before their fans, to their credit.

Just my thoughts!

--Eruanna

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ellisk



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Religion Reply with quote

Eruanna wrote:
Many religions have SO much in common.


Agreed. I do wish for more unity in this area myself and find the lack of such unity very sad.

Eruanna wrote:

Buddhism regards all life as sacred,... Catholicism has Saint Francis, ...I find myself moving snails and earthworms back into the grass after a large rain...


Saint Francis was always my favorite saint!

I admit I also move frogs (in Florida rains drive the little frogs out) and lizards in the cold and things like that. People think I am absolutely crazy. I probably am but I feel so sorry for them. I work at a school where the kids like to stomp them.

I can tell a funny story about Buddhists and respect for life: There was a monastary of western Buddhists in NY. It was getting absolutely overrun with cockroaches but the people living there were monks and they take vow to not take ANY life (they even sweep the gound in front of themselves as they walk to avoid stepping on bugs). They couldn't live with the roaches but the couldn't bring themselves to kill them and finally it started negatively affecting their teachings because the Dharma students didn't want to come in and meditate with all the roaches around. They actually had a big summit trying to decide what to do and even consulted the Dalai Lama several times before they concluded that in that instance it would ok to call an exterminator.

I think that is a dear story. How many people do you know that would care about a roach! Smile

Eruanna wrote:
Ah, and the elves get recycled back into Arda. They are reincarnated, so to speak. They are (I think one writer put it) like Bodhisattvas of Middle Earth. These are enlightened beings that delay their own enlightenment of reincarnation to suffer being reborn until evil and suffering are taken out of the world. No wonder Glorfindel had to return--his job in Arda was not yet done! The Bodhisattva's fate, like the elves, is tied to the world.


I have actually read several papers on the Buddhist nature of the elves in Tolkien (though I think Catholic Tolkien probably would have a heart attack if he heard them). I admit I have always found the similarities interesting. The same thing with the Jedi Philosophy in Star Wars stuff. Consciously or (more likely) unconconsciously and completely unintentionally, a lot of this stuff is very Buddhist. But then if you look at Buddhism, a lot of it is very Christian or Muslim or Hindu which brings us back to the opening comment--religions have a great deal in common. Smile

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Eruanna



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Buddhism Reply with quote

Ellisk:

If Tolkien moved spiders out of his house, I am sure he would not be too shocked to hear of his elves being compared to Buddhists!

Many truly spiritually centred people are tolerant of other religions and creeds, in my experience. Smile

We have ants in the house on occasion. We bait them outside with a tub of margarine, and they tend to stay outside. Smile

The only time I really kill a spider (in the house) is when it is a recluse spider that can seriously bite one of the family (including the pets). Then I kill them quickly so they do not suffer. (Very toxic venom!) I always feel bad about it afterward... Crying or Very sad

OTOH, we have a huge spider building a web on our large tree in the yard. It just evokes the majesty of God and nature to see it! (Not Ungoliant, this big beauty....)

--Eruanna

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Yavanie



Joined: 02 Jun 2004
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh to live in a world where we could accept each others differences and celebrate each others passions and share our own without having to qualify everystatement and censor ourselves to make sure we don't offend anyone.

having said that, thanks to SecretKeeper for starting this thread by asking people to simply state where they stand individually and we can all learn from and appreciate each other as individuals. I can think of few places where this kind of discussion could take place in sucha friendly and accepting attitude, except here at OSA.


okay, personally I am a charismatic (think passionate), evangelical (think - I'll share, just ask) Episcopalian (think anglican, looks catholic, feels protestant). Okay, yes I am quite the American melting pot. I am a strong believer in Christ, his sacrifice and the inerrancy of the Bible. I very much enjoy the allegorical elements of Tolkien's work. I am certain he must have been aware of the world views of other religions, though his work was surely colored by his strong catholic upbringing.

I feel a bond with people who have personal moral convictions that they take to heart and live out. I find it hard to connect much with people who flit from trend to trend because it's the "in" thing. That's not conviction on any level.

I believe in creation. We didn't get her by random chance but by divine and intelligent design and we are all products of that divine and intelligent design (everyone in this forum is a fine example of divine and intelligent design). I also believe that the works of the creator attest to that design. How can you observe the wonders of the human body or splendor of the plant and animal life or the beauty of the geologic features of this earth and not be moved to believe in a creator? Okay, so much for the preaching for the day.

There is such a dearth of goodwill towards others in this world. I strive to be a light in the darkness. Anything that fosters good will, positive thoughts, prayers for others, seeking to serve others is of interest to me. I am very much enjoying this thread and getting to know the hearts and minds of my fellow Tolkien geeks.


As testament to the willingness to share, I must thank Ellisk, LuthienTinuviel and Eruanna for answering my post about religions and the use of prayer beads. My presentation went well, was well received and was much improved by sharing what you shared with me,
in gratitude,
Yavanie

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...I understand the sadness of the Elves, and I have seen Mordor.

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SpaceWeavil



Joined: 27 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if I should answer this, but I will. Basically I fall into the 'don't know' category. I was brought up Presbyterian Church of Scotland, which is quite a dour, severe branch of the religion (or at least it was in the area I grew up in). I went to Sunday School, went to services until I was 11 I think, then my parents said I could make up my own mind if I wanted to go or stay.

I had a fairly religious upbringing, I suppose because we also had visits from the minister (who's name, btw, was P.Rae Laughing ) at school, but no one in my family was very religious and I suppose that rubbed off a bit on me. My uncle, what's more, who looked after me when mum and dad were at work, was very much into comparative religions, especially Buddhism and Hinduism, so he used to teach me about that. When I went to high school I did a Higher (like an A level) in Religious Studies and studied Christianity and Islam. So I suppose my beliefs are kind of an amalgam of things from different religions and my own experience of the world.

I couldn't say one way or the other if I believe anything or in any particular god, I must admit, but I do believe that there is something out there, beyond our comprehension and that there are too many strange and remarkable things happening in the world that we just can't explain for there not to be anything there. Whether this is God or not, I don't know.

So that is me, a perpetual 'don't know' Embarassed

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ellisk



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As testament to the willingness to share, I must thank Ellisk, LuthienTinuviel and Eruanna for answering my post about religions and the use of prayer beads. My presentation went well, was well received and was much improved by sharing what you shared with me,
in gratitude,
Yavanie


I am so glad your talk went well. It sounded fascinating. I used to do a lot of public speaking and it is always so nice to be able to look back on it and say, 'whew, that went well.' Congrats.

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JayofLasgalen



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A most interesting thread!

I'm Christian (though I don't go to church as often as I think I should), but can see similarities in many other religions.

I was dismayed to read on another site a few months ago that 'we should all pray for Orli, because as a Buddhist he was destined for a bad place'. The person who posted this said that non-Christians might object. I replied that as a Christian *I* objected to the intolerance shown. I don't know a great deal about Buddhism, but what little I do know is all about pacificism and respect for all life. That can't be a bad thing.


Jay
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Eruanna



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

JayofLasgalen wrote:
A most interesting thread!
I was dismayed to read on another site a few months ago that 'we should all pray for Orli, because as a Buddhist he was destined for a bad place'. Jay


Jay: Thanks for being so spiritually centred and confident enough to be tolerant. Smile

It is to your credit!

I feel so sorry for Mr. Bloom. I have a colleague who literally freaked when she heard the news about him. She now thinks he is going to Hell, Hell, Hell! Again, poor Orli... Very Happy

Yavanie:

I am so glad you talk went well! I was thinking about you. Very Happy True religion, it seems, is all about finding common ground for the purposes of promoting compassion in the world, and at the risk of sounding Tolkienian, letting shine the Forces of Light, as it were. We must all strive for the light, even as every plant stretches toward the sun. (Is that TOO elvish an analogy? Very Happy )

I really enjoy hearing everyone's opinions on this thread.

--Eruanna

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SecretKeeper



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Space: Not knowing where you stand in religious beliefs is okay. It doesn't make you a bad person.

Excuse me but now I've got to rant about what ticks me off the most. It revolves around Religion but please correct me by telling "SK" (a.k.a me) to revise this post if it doesn't make sense.

I've been fortunate to have so many interesting friends. Many of them are eccentric in more ways than one but also rebllious against the Christian faith. Most of my friends are bisexual or homosexual and think that a lot of people are against them because of their sexuality. Then again, why the consipracy against teenagers? It's not conspiracy, it's called expectation.

Many of my friends have shunned Christianity because of certain interpretations found in the Bible. I've been teased abount not only being straight but because I believe in Jesus and God. Sometimes it gets hard when you're sixteen and those people do that to you. I wonder if it's worth it being around those people and it has. I've learned to be an individual and to not be what other people expect of you sometimes.

They're really good people but somehow, I've decided to slowly move away from them because though they let me be part of their group, that doesn't mean that they've truly accepted me. When I talk about believing in God and saying I'm Christian as well as saying that I believe in spirits and re-incarnation....people put me down. I'm not Christian because I believe in spirits and re-incarnation. I'm not Buddhist but some of the things I believe in, are. So really what's my religion? I suppose that's what they're asking me (though subtly) when we talk about Religion and that's what I'm asking myself.

Ok....now I'm rambling but really. That's my belief in a nutshell and what ticks me off about my friends, but the latter isn't really important.

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SilverMoonLady



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*tromps spectacularly out of her broom closet, scattering various small critters that were hiding there and bringing that old raincoat down on her head*
*removes raincoat and drops the dramatic attempt altogether*

Very Happy Well, so, I'm a Wiccan, and something of a kitchen witch (yes, there's a difference Wink ); I'm a solitary (which means I practice alone), with primarily Celtic influences (as opposed to Native American or Norse influence), and I have been seeking my path for close to 11 years now.
I wasn't brought up in any particular church, though my mother used to be Roman Catholic (now Greek Orthodox) and my father was a non-denominational Christian. I got no formal spiritual instruction, though I did manage to hear just the wrong sermon (damnation and hell were the subject) when I was too young to understand it. It scared the heck out of me and kept me well clear of *any* church for a long time.
My coursework as a cultural anthropology student reconfirmed a lot of what I'd always felt, that no one person could have all the right answers for everyone, and it has always guided my way in dealing with others who had different opinions on such matters.
Today, I have friends from so very many different religious and spiritual backgrounds that I can't imagine really fighting with someone over such a thing. It is deplorable and unfortunate, and I'm really glad that OSA is a place where these kinds of things don't happen:)

Wave

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ellisk



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SilverMoonLady wrote:


Very Happy Well, so, I'm a Wiccan, and something of a kitchen witch (yes, there's a difference Wink ); I'm a solitary (which means I practice alone), with primarily Celtic influences (as opposed to Native American or Norse influence), and I have been seeking my path for close to 11 years now.


I went to a Wiccan handfasting ceremony once. It was possibly the most meaningful thing I have ever seen. I can't think of any other word to describe it and 'meaningful' is not quite right but.... It was fascinating and beautiful and symbolic and so connected to nature... It gave me a real respect for Wiccans. I suspect most people know very little about Wiccans. I know I don't know much but I enjoyed what I saw.

I am amazed by the diversity in this thread. I think it is wonderful.

SecretKeeper: You are on the right path--think for yourself, make your own decisions about your beliefs and respect others' choices. Seems right to me.

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SilverMoonLady



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellisk wrote:

I went to a Wiccan handfasting ceremony once. It was possibly the most meaningful thing I have ever seen. I can't think of any other word to describe it and 'meaningful' is not quite right but.... It was fascinating and beautiful and symbolic and so connected to nature... It gave me a real respect for Wiccans. I suspect most people know very little about Wiccans. I know I don't know much but I enjoyed what I saw.


Yeah, we're not exactly the loudest instrument in the band Very Happy I am very glad you got to experience some of wicca in such a beautiful setting. Weddings, the union of two people in love, is something so very special for *all* people, it crosses boundaries more than almost any other aspect of societal life.


Quote:
SecretKeeper: You are on the right path--think for yourself, make your own decisions about your beliefs and respect others' choices. Seems right to me.


Let me second that thought with my every inch: clear thinking, reflection and respect are the key! Thumb

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