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Vilwarin



Joined: 01 Jun 2004
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Location: Annúminas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:56 pm    Post subject: Dúnadan Age Reply with quote

So we know from Aldarion's story in unfinished tales that a Dúnadan reaches maturity with the age of 25.
One can asume that this practice survived the drowning of Númenor. Aragorn began his great journeys with 25.

But when would a Dúnadan be considered marriagable without causing a stir like Gilraen.
Would it begin with 25 as well?

One other thing that would not leave me alone is the Dúnedain Lords' practice to surrender their life when their successors reach the age of ninety.
That brings this to mind: a son was born to me, ninety years remaining for me
Would that still be true in the 4th age?

~Vil

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telcontarr



Joined: 27 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that would be so in the 4th Age, because there's only Aragorn and his children and some rangers left of the Dunedain, and their blood will be mingeled with that of other Men, and so, their lives will be shorter, won't they?
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telcontarr



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that would be so in the 4th Age, because there's only Aragorn and his children and some rangers left of the Dunedain, and their blood will be mingeled with that of other Men, and so, their lives will be shorter, won't they?
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Cressida



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

telcontarr wrote:
I don't think that would be so in the 4th Age, because there's only Aragorn and his children and some rangers left of the Dunedain....


Well no, there are Dúnedain in Gondor, too--Denethor's family, Imrahil's family, the Rangers of Ithilien, etc. Their lifespans are shorter than in the North, but members of the more pureblooded families can still reach 100. And the Númenoreans are very big on clinging to tradition, so I think it is quite possible that they would stick to coming of age at 25.
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Rhapsody



Joined: 11 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember this being discussed elsewhere on this forum very recently(or maybe at Stories of Arda). Did you check the search function of the archive/forum? Another good guidance is the appendices of LOTR, to see on average Dunedain became.

I know Leaward figured it out for her story Life in the Angle (maybe something is in her author notes), stating that the Dunedain of the North married very late. I think the average is around 125... Be aware that the bloodlines in the South are less pure. Faramir for example reached an age somewhere around ninety, Eowyn died earlier. With a bit of math and looking at the genealogies in the appendices (if not one of the HOME volumes has loads about it), I think you can make an educated guess....

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Cressida



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhapsody wrote:
Be aware that the bloodlines in the South are less pure. Faramir for example reached an age somewhere around ninety, Eowyn died earlier.


Not sure what you mean by "reached an age," but Faramir dies at age 120. The Princes of Dol Amroth generally live to be around 100, going by the dates in HoME.

Appendix A also mentions that the lifespans in Gondor decreased faster than in the North, so the fact that they live less long doesn't necessarily mean that they are significantly less pure-blooded than the Rangers of the North. At any rate, they certainly are still considered Dúnedain by JRRT's standards. Therefore, IMO, they have a good chance of continuing the tradition of coming of age at 25.
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Rhapsody



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cressida wrote:

Not sure what you mean by "reached an age," but Faramir dies at age 120. The Princes of Dol Amroth generally live to be around 100, going by the dates in HoME.


Heh, I must have confused him with Eomer Wink

This is from the LOTR appendices

It was the pride and wonder of the Northern Line that, though their power departed and their people dwindled, through all the many generations the succession was unbroken from father to son. Also, though the length of the lives of the Dúnedain grew ever less in Middle-earth, after the ending of their kings the waning was swifter in Gondor; and many of the Chieftains of the North still lived to twice the age of Men, and far beyond the days of even the oldest amongst us. Aragorn indeed lived to be two hundred and ten years old, longer than any of his line since King Arvegil; but in Aragorn Elessar the dignity of the kings of old was renewed.

Quote:

Appendix A also mentions that the lifespans in Gondor decreased faster than in the North, so the fact that they live less long doesn't necessarily mean that they are significantly less pure-blooded than the Rangers of the North. At any rate, they certainly are still considered Dúnedain by JRRT's standards. Therefore, IMO, they have a good chance of continuing the tradition of coming of age at 25.


Of course they are, but it is stated that they dwindle faster than the Northern line.

After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dúnedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men. For many of the great had been slain in the Kin-strife; while Eldacar showed favour to the Northmen, by whose help he had regained the crown, and the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.
This mingling did not at first hasten the waning of the Dúnedain, as had been feared; but the waning still proceeded, little by little, as it had before. For no doubt it was due above all to Middle-earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Númenoreans after the downfall of the Land of the Star. Eldacar lived to his two hundred and thirty-fifth year, and was king for fifty-eight years, of which tea were spent in exile.

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Cressida



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhapsody wrote:
Of course they are, but it is stated that they dwindle faster than the Northern line.


Yes, I believe I acknowledged that fact in each of my last two posts to this thread. I'm afraid I don't understand why you keep harping on this point. Are you saying this means they are not "truly" Dúnedain? If so, I think the Professor would disagree with you. Do you think it means they have abandoned the practice of coming of age at 25? Or are you making a different point?
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Rhapsody



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cressida wrote:
Rhapsody wrote:
Of course they are, but it is stated that they dwindle faster than the Northern line.


Yes, I believe I acknowledged that fact in each of my last two posts to this thread. I'm afraid I don't understand why you keep harping on this point. Are you saying this means they are not "truly" Dúnedain? If so, I think the Professor would disagree with you. Do you think it means they have abandoned the practice of coming of age at 25? Or are you making a different point?


I simply looked up the quotes from the appendices Cressida. I thought that would be helpful for Vilwarin. Nothing more.

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Cressida



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhapsody,

Okay, thanks for explaining. Sorry if I sounded grouchy! It just seemed like you were trying to say I was wrong about something, and I couldn't figure out why, because we seemed to be saying pretty close to the same thing.

By the way, about something you said earlier in the thread...

Rhapsody wrote:
I know Leaward figured it out for her story Life in the Angle (maybe something is in her author notes), stating that the Dunedain of the North married very late. I think the average is around 125...

I think I can guess how she came up with that age: the idea (from UT?) that the kings pass on the throne when their heirs reach 90, coupled with the fact that Aragorn lives to be 210. 210 - 90 = 120. However, I doubt this was the age when most of the Northern Dúnedain married.

First, the kings always live longer than the non-kings, so most of the northern Dúnedain wouldn't have that long a life expenctancy.

Second, as a piece of negative evidence, no one seems to think Arathorn is marrying recklessly early at 57.

Third, Aragorn lives unusually long even for one of his family. It seems that he is graced with an increase in lifespan, but it is hard to be sure since he is the first of the Northern chieftains to die of natural causes in several generations. Does anyone have the book handy to check the ages most of them actually reached?
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Vilwarin



Joined: 01 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your opinions. Methinks 125 years would be awfully late. I have here the ages of the Dúnedain chieftains: If the heir would inherit the title at 90, 125 would be much too late. I think 60 is much more reasonable.

Aranarth: 168 years, ruled 130 years
Arahael: 165 years, ruled 71 years
Aranuir: 163 years, ruled 70 years
Aravir: 163 years, 72 years
Aragorn I (killed): 100 years, ruled 8 years
Araglas: 159 years, ruled 128 years
Arahad I: 158 years, ruled 68
Aragost: 157 years, ruled 65 years
Aravorn: 157 years, ruled 66 years
Arahad II: 156 years, ruled 65 years
Arassuil: 156 years, rules 65 years
Arathorn I: 155 years, ruled 64
Argonui: 155 years, ruled 64 years
Arador (killed): 110 years, ruled 18 years
Arathorn II(killed): 60 years, ruled 3 years

~Vil

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Strider



Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

correct me if I'm blatantly wrong, but this is how i figure it:

According to the tale of Arwen and Aragorn in appendix A (page 1038 I believe) it seems Aragorn gives Eldarion the winged crown and the scepter just before he dies. This happens in the year 120 of the fourth age by Gondor reckoning. I highly doubt that Aragorn and Arwen waited even a year before having children, but I could be wrong, but if I'm not, that would place Eldarion in his one hundred-teens when he recieves the crown.

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Rhapsody



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strider wrote:
correct me if I'm blatantly wrong, but this is how i figure it:

According to the tale of Arwen and Aragorn in appendix A (page 1038 I believe) it seems Aragorn gives Eldarion the winged crown and the scepter just before he dies. This happens in the year 120 of the fourth age by Gondor reckoning. I highly doubt that Aragorn and Arwen waited even a year before having children, but I could be wrong, but if I'm not, that would place Eldarion in his one hundred-teens when he recieves the crown.


125 was meant as the average age they would die, if they didn't had a run in with boars, trolls, orcs, or polar bears. No wait..

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