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Elladan and Elrohir

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SilverMoonLady



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick though on the whole 'who's older' issue... if they are ident's and it appears they are, then indeed conception time is exactly the same; therefore actual birth order would be the only way to distinguish them in that sense, and is actually a rather elegantly simple solution to the problem, don't you think?
Elves did possess common sense after all Wink

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MysticGirl1



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've a question about Elladan and Elrohir after Elronds leaving.
A friend said, that the twins became mortally after Elronds leaving, but I think that's unlogical.
She explained it with a quote of the registers: "Elronds childs has the choose too, to leave Middle Earth with him or to stay and became mortaly and to die in Middle Earth..."

Said that quote, that the immortal life of the twins is bind by the life and choose of Elrond? That would be quite unlogical, wouldn't it?

What's your opinion?

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Viv
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MysticGirl1 wrote:
Said that quote, that the immortal life of the twins is bind by the life and choose of Elrond? That would be quite unlogical, wouldn't it?


Sort of. Per the quote, they can stay immortal so long as they go where Papa Elrond goes. If he goes to the west and they don't go with him, the assumption is that they do in fact become mortal.

Their choice is to stay with Elrond (choosing to honor their elven heritage and so become Elves) or separate themselves from him (choosing to honor their human heritage and so becoming Men).
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MysticGirl1



Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Viv!

That is really unlogical. What had Tolkien thing about that.... we discussed that matter in a German forum before a while and the only answer was, that he must have done a mistake about that.

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Texasgirl



Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to go to the older thing, well, yeah, i agree that they were concieved at the same time, but one HAS to come out first, and one HAS to be older to be the heir, right?

i'd say elladan...but that maybe the millions of twinfics that i've read talking. but seriously, out of every twinfic i've read, every single one has had elladan as older..so there has to be some fact in that somewhere, right?

TG

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SpaceWeavil



Joined: 27 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texasgirl wrote:
to go to the older thing, well, yeah, i agree that they were concieved at the same time, but one HAS to come out first, and one HAS to be older to be the heir, right?

i'd say elladan...but that maybe the millions of twinfics that i've read talking. but seriously, out of every twinfic i've read, every single one has had elladan as older..so there has to be some fact in that somewhere, right?

TG


I have only ever done one twin fic, (which was AU anyway since it was set in the 1880s), but just from 'getting into the character', it was actually Elrohir who felt 'older' to me. I never actually said that in the fic, I don't think. But he certainly struck me as being slightly more mature in attitude. That's just my take on it though. No basis in canon whatsoever. I've got a sequel planned to that one as well, which I will start once I finish one of the major WIPs I have going just now (so goodness knows when that will be, the way Alliance is going Shocked ) but I intend to keep that dynamic between the twins as it worked for me.

Ok, so that is my tuppence worth. Laughing

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Elvenesse



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Letter #153 says: "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."

I think Celeborn could quite easily have remained for centuries, even thousands of years, before he went West. However, if the twins had chosen to never go West that would essentially meant that they had chosen mortality. If they had chosen immortality, then I think they would have to have left M-e after a couple of centuries.

On the subject of ages, obviously as identical twins they would have been exactly the same age. But I don't think it is ever stated which is the firstborn son (Does Tolkien ever name the firstborn of any of the four sets of twins?).

I read somewhere - no idea where - that Tolkien shows which was born first by the order in which he writes their names (how much this is true I don't know, as I think he wrote both 'Elrond and Elros' and 'Elros and Elrond'). I think most people assume that Elladan is the firstborn simply because, as far as I can remember, it is always written 'Elladan and Elrohir'.

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JayofLasgalen



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 'Tale of Years', it's listed as 'birth of Elladan and Elrohir' - it's usual in genealogies to name the older child first, so I'd say Elladan is certainly first-born, even if by conception date they are exactly the same age.

Does Tolkien use the word 'twins' anywhere for them? Or say that they were identical? Just wondering.


Jay
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Texasgirl



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait...new question: do the twins have dark hair of light hair? cuz in rohan, it says some shit about "fair looks..." does that mean blond?

and spaceweavil - i'll try to read your story soon!

TG

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VanatheEverYoung



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texasgirl wrote:
wait...new question: do the twins have dark hair of light hair? cuz in rohan, it says some shit about "fair looks..." does that mean blond?

TG


In this case, fair means beautiful, not blond. In "Passing of the Gray Company" the sons of Elrond are described as "So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven fair."

There is a good essay on elven genetics at this website: http://www.luchau.org/writing/elven_genetics.htm

Basically, elven genetics function like human genetics. She talks about half-elven genetics also. She drew Punnett Squares and listed the ratios. Quite a few of her case studies involve Elrond and his children.

Hope that was helpful!
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daw



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran a search of the Silm and the trilogy, and Tolkien never calls Elladan and Elrohir twins there. But of course, he does say they looked alike.
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Akroma



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if he doesn't call them Twins, If you check the cronology, it says year - birth of Elladan and Elrohir. So, since elven gestation periods last a year, that can only mean they were born at the same time.
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Texasgirl



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VanatheEverYoung wrote:
Texasgirl wrote:
wait...new question: do the twins have dark hair of light hair? cuz in rohan, it says some shit about "fair looks..." does that mean blond?

TG


In this case, fair means beautiful, not blond. In "Passing of the Gray Company" the sons of Elrond are described as "So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark-haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven fair."



another random Off Topic! question....was celebrian golden haired? is there any info on how she looked/acted/how she and elrond met?

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VanatheEverYoung



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only one of those question that I can answer is how she and Elrond met. Take this for what you will because the references come from "Unfinished Tales." This passage comes from an essay on Celeborn and Galadriel when Tolkien still had Amroth as their son.

"...with Celebrian she [Galadriel] came to Imladris seeking Celeborn ... and it was then that Elrond first saw Celebrian, and loved her, though he said nothing of it."

I've never read anything to disprove that statement, and I doubt that Celebrian having an older brother would change how she met Elrond anyway.

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QueenLothirielcc



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that Tolkien hinted in the Appendice A that the twin sons of Elrond did not sail into the West with their father at the end of the Third Age. Tolkien never explained what happened to them outside of a passage that they remained at Rivendell.Was Rivendell eventually abandoned and did the twins ever marry?
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