Reviews by AngmarAndElfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:06 pm

Agan,

"It is a very interesting chapter, especially for me. I was wondering, how exactly you will "flesh" some of the vague ideas we share. And you did it quite well. Not the way I would have written it myself (I would have had some of the nazgul loose their Rings to the Necromancer at a much earlier date, before the Fall of Angmar). But your way works as well, of course."

Thank you for looking over this chapter. I had been concerned about its controversial nature. As far as I know, these ideas have never been expressed in print, so these are new concepts with nothing to use as a precident.

"Here we have no canonic evidence, but I am not sure that the Witch-King had the strongest Ring. I feel the 9 rings might well be of equal power, but "each ring gives power according to the measure of its possessor". The WK was the strongest of the Nine initially, so, with their respective power multiplied, the gap between him and the others increased even more. It is just my opinion, of course, and it is not meant as a criticism."

The major theories about the Nine Rings - 1. That Sauron gave the Witch-king the greatest Ring of Power and all others were equal; 2. That Sauron gave the Witch-king and Khamul the two most powerful rings and the other rings are equal; 3. That the Rings were made in descending order, with 1 being the most powerful and 9 the least powerful; 4. That the Rings were equal in power, but reflected the inate power and ability of the bearer - can all fit in with the canon.

In The Circles, it is stated many times that Sauron hand-picked the Witch-king of Angmar to be the leader of the Nazgul. It is implied that Sauron studied the Nazgul, else why would he pick one over the other to be the leader if he did not know a lot about them? This plot device seems to favor the "Witch-king's ring is the most powerful" theory. Of course, it can always favor the other theory - "The Rings reflect the bearer's abilities." However, in the Circles, it is standard "canon" to say that Angmar's Ring was the most powerful.

Then, too, on another angle, I don't think that the other eight would exactly be willing, since they had been kings and powerful men, to allow themselves to be ruled by another unless it was by force, especially when Eastern kings must submit to a Numenorean. That would sting. That would be justification for the leader's ring to be the most powerful - to force them to follow and control them. Eight against one would be difficult odds to beat, even if Angmar did have a powerful personality.

"I always wondered what did the WK do after the fall of Barad Dur and before he came to Angmar. Perhaps he has been in Umbar? Gondor conquered Umbar in 933 and Harad in 1050. Perhaps that caused the WK to transfer his base North?"

This is certainly a good possibility, for where else could he find people who would possibly be more attuned to him?

"So very true about Earnur. Really, why didn't they even tried to offer ransom? No, Mardil the Good Steward didn't want his King back!"

The "Good Steward" might have been called that by the people, who did not want the king back, either. Smile smiley face

Imagine what would happen if someone kidnapped President Bush? Or Queen Elizabeth? Everyone would think this act was a delcaration of war. Enemies just do not kidnap rulers of countries without paying a price. The hew and cry would be tremendous to bring them back by military force or by ransom, which was a very common way of getting back lords and nobles during the middle ages. Richard the Lion-hearted is the record-holder for having the highest ransom paid for him - twenty-two or twenty-three million dollars. Prince John came up with the money, but obviously Mardil did not want to pay to get him back.

"I loved the part about Skri. Quote poignant and creepy."

Skri is one of my favorites. He seems to be a man of terrible regrets and grief.

"What is a water organ? I am curious. Does it really exist?"

A water organ is the ancient form of pipe organ. Here are two good sources on the water organ. The second is more informative than the first and has some good illustrations.

http://themusicpage.org/articles/pipeorgans.htm
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/april05/features/organic/organic.html

"Who made the plague? Or was it natural? This: "Now he dares steal My plans and My designs! He has purloined the Great Plague from Me!" is invaluable. Hee-hee."

The plague was natural, but each one blamed the other for causing it.

Thanks for reading.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:51 pm

"This chapter reminds me strongly of Italian Renaissance literature, like "Decameron". The tales of nazgul adventures and misadventures in Gondor are hilarious. They really "did all in their power to ensure fertility" in depopulating Gondor!"

The boys aren't talking. Smile smiley face

"The question of nazgul fertility is difficult.
By the way, I have recently found this quote from Morgoth's Ring: "Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring)."
But, I know, it is inconclusive. Nice that you left the question open."

To me, the concept of evil is relative. The interpretation all depends upon who is writing. If we were to do a Lost Tales fiction or base our story upon the Lost Tales canon, then Melkor is married to a spirit named Ubandi and they have children. I prefer the Lost Tales story really. Writers could really go somewhere with these stories. I wish there were more fiction written from these secondary sources.

If evil is barren, then how were Ungoliant and Shelob able to reproduce? Then there are the orcs. They seem to be able to reproduce. I do not think of them as evil either, but rather physicial representations of concepts.

"Interesting how different nazgul personalities prove to be in love affairs. Angmar always keeps aloof, not much romantically involved with his women, and not even interested in his possible bastards. Udu falls in love sometimes, but then loses interest (and the women herself becomes a stake in a game). And Skri is faithful even beyond death."

Angmar guards his heart and his thoughts. Udu, younger, is a romantic, as is Rut to a certain degree. Skri is a mournful, steadfast lover, always faithful, grieving always, for her and for many lost things.

"Interesting where all these sycophants come from? Harad, or Nurn? And where all the food and wine come from? The problem of Minas Morgul is that it lies all alone at the very border of the enemy territory. Behind the city is a difficult pass to the barren plain of Gorgoroth, and there is still a long way to the fertile plains of Nurn (provided that the Nazgul in Minas Morgul ruled Nurn). The road South, to Harad, that goes along Anduin, passes through Gondor territory. So bringing provisions for a large population seems quite difficult."

We know that by the time of LOTR that Nurn is feeding Sauron's armies. Tolkien told us virtually nothing about Nurn other than it is a food producer at the time of LOTR. Here is about all we do know:

“But as these ranges approached one another, being indeed but parts of one great wall about the mournful plains of Lithlad and of Gorgoroth, and the bitter inland sea of Núrnen amidmost, they swung out long arms northward; and between these arms there was a deep defile." - The Black Gate is Closed, TTT, 244

“Things move in the far East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported; and north in Mirkwood and beyond; and south in Harad.” - Beregond, “Minas Tirith,” Return of the King, p. 38

“Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Muontain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges, and the musterings of long-planned war; and here the Dark Power, moving its armies like pieces on the board, was gathering them together.” - ROTK, 201

Nurn is actually pretty much of an afterthought to explain how Sauron's armies were being fed. A lot of things in Tolkien's writing do not make much sense when you study them, but it is fiction.

At this time in the story, Sauron has declared himself openly in Mordor for about seventy years. What the Nurnians were doing before that is unknown. Therefore, since this is AU, we explore possibilities. We are dealing with a 1000-year period in the history of Middle-earth about which little is written.

The people of Minas Morgul would be a mixture of rebels and dissidents from Gondor and Arnor; displaced Angmarians; Haradrim, Nurnians; Khandrim; Rhûnians; Umbarians; about anyone who is not a faithful Gondorian or a stalwart Northman.

In The Circles, we can approach the feeding of a living military force through a possible Nazgul overlordship of Nurn, or a simple matter of their purchasing food from Nurn. Whatever, the Nazgul control the pass. Either way, I see food as not that much a problem. Transportation, however, would take quite a while. There could be terraced gardens. That is not impossible - look at Peru. The MERP maps of Gorgoroth have streams running through the Mountains of Shadow, even small lakes.

Considering the factors that Mount Doom was mostly dormant from the end of the Second Age until the year 2954 of the Third Age, the Mountains of Shadow are a relatively low range which allow rain and wind from the West, and the soil of a volcanic plain is very fertile, perhaps the barren plain of Gorgoroth was not so barren. If the mountain is not actively smoking and the land gets rain, why would it be a barren wasteland? Even grass grew around the Thangorodrim when those three volcanos were ACTIVE.

There is even evidence in an early map that Tolkien drew that a river runs out of the Ash Mountains and passes in front of the site of Barad-dur. Elfhild and I are going to go with the Nargil Pass to Harad in this AU. We might move it, though.

Apparently, the Gondorians were too cautious even to launch an exploritory military force in all those years. The forts to guard Mordor were basically abandoned after the Great Plague hit in 1640. Maybe the native Nurnians (people of whom we know next to nothing) or even people who lived in a relatively fertile Gorgoroth defeated the already withered Gondorian guard posts. If there had been any Gondorian colonization attempts, these people would free after 1600 years.

If the Nazgul controlled Mordor from 2000 TA, they would be controlling Gorgoroth and possibly have an influence also upon Nurn. Sauron's deserted realm would be pretty safe for them.

More theories coming in the next update. Not sure when that is, though.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:58 pm

Agan,

"We learn that Krith was not a member of the "clever group who fancies themselves so close to the King". No wonder here, strange that Skri belonged to it - I thought it comprised only the Numenoreans. Is it because of Skri's sharp wit and humor? Or simply because he was "fawning upon the Captain instead of our rightful Master"?"

Skri's humor holds him in good stead, but there are other reasons...

"But I had difficulties to understand the following jibe:
"Tell your feelings to Khamûl." Skri knew that Krith would take this as an insult, a taunt. The Eighth felt justified. "I am sure he would understand. You two are so... close."
Why was Krith offended? Didn't he choose to spend 2000 years in Khamul's and Zagbolg's company?"

There are complex political intrigues that will not be shown until later in the story. When this is revealed, you will understand the jibe. Smile smiley face

"Very funny way to use the Fell Beast to intimidate an opponent. The nazgul indeed act like fellow pilots in an Air Corps would. As a side note: it seems that taking wineskins on a flight was common practice among nazgul, not only Udu's little weakness."

There will be more Nazgul "flying circus" air stunts in the future. Smile smiley face

"Interesting story of the ancient rivalry of Skri and Krith. The story, how Sauron corrupted those two Easterlings is quite believable. Indeed,the two rivals must have provided Sauron with lots of fun. I agree that Sauron at this time possibly could change shapes, at least could inhabit dead bodies for some time."

The two would provide much mirth for Sauron. I always saw Sauron in this period as being able to be a powerful necromancer and shapeshifter, too. Elfhild says that my portrayal of Sauron reminds her a bit of Loki, the trickster god in Norse mythology. Come to think of it, she is right. Smile smiley face

Sauron, though, is not as wild as Loki in shapeshifting. Loki could become female, give birth and go back to being male. Of course, that would have made an excellent disguise. Smile smiley face

"I was wondering about this "Golden Lord" ("Then there arose to the east of them across the mountains a mighty people not of their race, whose overlord was vicious and savage.") Did he also become one of the Nine?"

No, he did not. The "Golden Lord's" identity might not be revealed for many, many chapters, and then it might be a surprise.

"I agree of your interpretation of nazgul actions in the Second Age - when they were ultimately controlled by Sauron, but "held with a not-too-tight rein". And indeed in the Third Age, finally free, they must have followed their own wishes, very probably each moved closer to his own people. At least, I believe, the Witch-King chose to settle close to the Dunedain not because he hated them, but because they were the only people he wished to rule, all the others being inferior."

I can agree entirely with you here. The bloodlines were Numenorean and basically the Gondorians were his kindred. It is only logical that he would want to rule those who were worthy.

"No help has come to Angmar from the East, very probably, because Sauron feared the Witch-King's growing strength. In TA 1974 he was in one step from becoming the Third Age's Dark Lord, supplanting Sauron."

When Sauron was at his weakest, there was that potential for Angmar to be the new Dark Lord.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:12 pm

Agan,

"Krak and Zag are funny, the humour a bit earthy, but they are Easterlings, not sophisticated Numenoreans, so I think it is appropriate."

Krak might not be an Easterling, a Southron or a Northerner. The ancestors of the men of Erech and that vicinity are always overlooked. Smile smiley face

"And Udu and Rut are awesome. Udu's attitude is very Tolkienesque, so to say. I hope Udu's apprehensions will not come true, that would be a great loss!"

Characters are often wrong in their perceptions, so we cannot always believe that what they say will be what happens in the story. Actually Udu's "premonitions" are based on situations that really have happened in history. I know from many years of reading about the Civil War that some man or men in a company would always have "a premonition" that they were going to die in that battle. They would become emotional and tell their comrades about sending their personal effects back to friends or relatives. Sometimes their premonitions were correct; sometimes not. I am quite sure that throughout history, there have been many men like this who were convinced they were going to die but lived.

"The EMBLEM of the Nazgul flying Corpse has appeared. Hurrah! The very one that was Tolkien’s own, but never used. Great, that you made it an esoteric symbol."

Oh, yes, it is like a talisman to them. When the emblem is severely damaged, Udu is convinced he is doomed.

"That was very interesting part of the back-story. Seems all the Numenorean nazgul at least tried simple sorcery and divination, Was that during their natural lives?"

This would be during Udu's natural life, when he was still seeking hidden mysteries and very much drawn to the arcane. That is not to say he was ever the best at it, though. I feel certain he would have had many failures.

"So, I guess it refers to how Sauron got the rings from the nazgul around 2950? Am I right to guess, that Goth and Skri were captives in Dol Guldur and lost their Rings earlier than the others, and later helped Sauron to get into Mordor? Or did you have other ideas?"

That will be in one of the chapters I am most worried about. I am having so much difficulty with these dates that are given in the book. I even have looked up old versions of the Tale of Years in HOME, hoping they will bring some more insight. HOME makes it even more confusing, however. The Silmarillion does not correspond with LOTR, either. I have a homemade timeline and I study it constantly, trying to reconcicle one date and event with another. It is very difficult in certain places.

"Refers to the Barrow downs blades, I guess."

Yes. I think Angmar, knowing his close association with the wights, has a good idea of what else might be buried in those barrows.

"But what about the canon story of the Nine seeing the accursed blades in hobbit's hands (or at least in Frodo's hand) at Weathertop (the blade burned like flaming branch in the spirit world)? And the King seeing the same type of blade in Merry's hands at Pelennor?"

The Nazgul know about the blades. That information bothers them, too. They fear what would happen if the art would be resurrected and more enchanted blades would be forged.

"This I like very much. Few realize that even Sauron is unable to watch all the time, and, most likely, the Nine feel his gaze, when directed at them. So when he is not looking, they start to act... according to their own wishes."

The Nine here have their Rings and Sauron would have more access to their thoughts. However, Sauron is not looking at the two drunken Nazgul. He is upset about the defeat at this moment.

"Liked the way Rut apologized to Udu for binding him to the beast. A very nice touch, speaks a lot about them. It is great how many wineskins Udu managed to take with him. Enjoyed this part a lot."

Udu did not want to be sober. He was too upset at what he considered a dire portent about his emblem and wanted to forget things asmuch as he could (he never can really, but it does not hurt to try). I enjoyed writing this chapter. Glad you liked it.

"Thank you for explaining "haruspices", I didn’t know what it meant."

Haruspex (plural haruspices) is a Roman word referring to those priests who examined entrails of dead beasts to tell the future. While it is not used in any of Tolkien's books, I liked it because it described so well these practitioners of augury. Here is a good link which even shows the chart using a bronze sheep's liver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex

"The song is wonderful. One of the best bawdy songs I ever read. Where did you get the inspiration? Poor Elves on the field hearing that bawdy song coming from the sky! They would have been offended, if they could make out the words."

The body song was original with me. These ideas just came to me, and I wrote them down. The battle was pretty much over by then. Perhaps they attributed it to some atmospheric disturbance. Udu is not a good singer.

"Thank you for the chapter, Angmar. A pleasure to read."

Thank you, Agan. There probably won't be another update until after Christmas or New Years. Elfhild and I are busy working on the third book, which is set in Nurn.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:10 pm

Agan,

Good things are worth waiting for. Smile smiley face

This chapter took several months of writing and rewriting before we felt it was ready for public viewing.

"One sees immediately the work you have done on the the choice of words and the text in general, for it to run so smoothly, like a dance."

We were striving for this chapter to flow, as you say, like a dance.

"I liked the part 'Taste My blood and drink of My power' it makes the love-scene rather unusual and creepy."

ELFHILD: By giving her his blood, Sauron was strengthening Thuringwethil for the act of their union. By taking hers, he was absorbing some of her powers to himself. This concept is more fully outlined in Morgoth's Ring.

"I wondered reading the scene, was she much smaller than Sauron (in size)?"

ELFHILD: Yes, Thuringwethil is lesser than Sauron in all ways, in size, height and power.

"I agree with you, Elfhild, the Wind spirit must be really harder to portray. I see it now. The other one, Nariamara, seems gorgeous, but not an overly complicated creature. (And what a gorgeous picture on your website!)."

ELFHILD: You are correct, Nároméra is not a complicated spirit. Her emotions are more fiery and volatile than Thuringwethil's. The bat is more melancholy and flighty.
The picture on the Circles site is of Lilith. The red hair and arrogant expression just seemed to fit.

"As for pettiness of the wind spirits, I believe the same wind spirit would sway from greatness to pettiness and back. It happened even to Manwe. Yes, Thuringwethil is a very unhappy bat, but quite likeable, somehow."

ELFHILD: She is quite a wretched creature, and for many reasons. To go lofty position of messenger to terrifying peasants in the East is quite a drop. Sauron is not faithful to anyone and has a streak of sadism that only grew with the years.

"On what terms is she with the nazgul, I wonder?"

ELFHILD: We see her as being resentful and jealous of them. After all, she was once messenger, and who are these nine young spirits, little more than mortals? But still, we think she is probably drawn to all Nine of them, handsome undead men of royal bloodlines. Nároméra, of course, would have her appeal to the Nazgul... sort of a fatal attraction almost. Smile smiley face

When she gets heated up, though, she can be rather lethal with a fiery whip. Smile smiley face

"And thank you, Elfhild, for replying at length to my previous comments. Indeed the theory that you came up with, based upon the Silmarillion, is quite realistic and compatible with Canon. It really would make a very interesting novel in itself..."

ELFHILD: I thought that as I was writing it... Smile smiley face

My mind swims with the tale of Arda, going all the way back to when Eru created the Ainur... I also see some rather humorous tales of the maiar who followed Melkor, on the line of the Tale of Tol Sirion... Smile smiley face

Ah, the misadventures of Thuringwethil, Sauron, Naromera, and others...

ANGMAR: I have thought that these chapters with Sauron, Thuringwethil and Nároméra could almost be a short story on its own, with some modifications, of course. Something tells me that they will be back. Smile smiley face

"Congratulations, Angmar!"

ANGMAR: Thank you! The jewels on the wall are based on pictures of real opals. I never thought of Sauron's quarters particularly as some weird, frightening place, but more a practical place, a fortress, a forge for making military equipment, not a “house of horror.” Tolkien drew the outside of Barad-dur more as though it were a factory.

This is my favorite drawing of Barad-dur, which is similar to Tolkien's rendition:

http://www.tlotr.com/fan_art/baraddur_stephenwalsh.jpg

From all the smokestacks, would seem apparent that Sauron is using the fortress as a place to make weaponry. Who knows, maybe he is refining oil and generating electricity. He is a maia of the earth and would be able to utilize these fuels for his own use.

"Yes a great gap-filler indeed. Tol-in-Ghauroth story in Silmarillion is a dark one with many omissions. You offered an excellent story, explaining the known facts realistically.
One understands that Sauron was NOT disembodied, however he disappeared somewhere nonetheless, and didn't help his master to deal with Luthien."

ELFHILD: No, Sauron seems strangely absent at a lot of important events. It seems that he did little during the Silmarillion, except play evil pranks on Gorlim and guard Tol Sirion. The balrogs led the armies, not Sauron. Just what did Sauron do? Either he was doing things in secret, or he was doing things openly but Tolkien never wrote about them. Perhaps Melkor did not have confidence in his military abilities and thus never placed him in positions of great power which required a competent leader. Smile smiley face

From reading and studying, it seems that Sauron and Melkor did not have the close friendship that many people depict them as having.

"By the way, have a look at this cartoon by Allor, depicting how the Silmarils were really obtained from Morgoth."

ELFHILD: Now we know the truth of things. Smile smiley face

Luthien was not so pure after all. Smile smiley face

ANGMAR: At least Melkor knew a little sweetness before he felt the bitterness of losing the Silmaril. Smile smiley face

We both admire Allor’s work greatly.

Thanks for reading, and for the comments. That is what keeps us writing.

Angmar and Elfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:00 pm

NOTE: Elfhild wrote the below. -Angmar

"The new chapters are awesome, truly beautiful language and imagery. I liked that you used Old English for these ancient stories. Interesting retelling of the Silmarillion, from the point of view of the Dark side. But not contrary to Tolkien, as he recognised himself, that stagnation was intrinsic in the works of the Valar, and later the Elves. Though, the Spring at Almaren was so beautiful!"

Agan,

Thank you for your comments on these chapters.

Yes, even the Valar would fade and grow more impotent as time passed by. Only Eru was immune from aging, and, perhaps, the Ainur who remained with him.

The creation of Arda in the Silmarillion is very vague, with many years clumped together in a few paragraphs. We do not even know when Sauron becomes the servant of Melkor, why he was displeased with Aulë, or even his real name.

We do know from what is in the Ainlindalë that Melkor also laboring upon Arda at the same time that Manwë, Aulë and Ulmo were working. He declared that Arda would be his kingdom, and so Manwe called other spirits to aid him and stay Melkor's workings. Melkor "withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he could" (apparently still on Arda) but when he saw the progress that the Valar were making, he took shape and challenging their labors. From there, we get the war of creation in which Melkor raises up a mountain and the Valar cast it down, and the Valar make a valley but Melkor raises it up into a mountain.

The war ended when Tulkas came, and Melkor retreated into the void. The Valar order things, clean up, and set up the Two Lamps. There is the great feast, which Melkor knows about, for he has spies among the Maiar (probably Sauron, the pre-balrogs, as well as many others). During the feast, Melkor sneaks back to Arda and hides in Utumno, taking with him "spirits out of the halls of Eä that he perverted to his service."

These could be wandering spirits, either in Arda or the Void, or perhaps some of the spies from Almaren itself. However, not too many who are close to the Valar, for if the maiar started leaving the island and its surrounding area like rats fleeing from a sinking ship, the Valar would be bound to notice.

Then when Melkor makes his first assault, probably many, if not all, of the maiar who are in his service flee from Almaren. After all, the world is about to be almost destroyed, and most would be convinced of Melkor's success in the war. There would be quite an underground network of spies and agents, recruiters (who better to rally up support for Melkor than Sauron the Seducer?), and a hotbed of political unrest just underneath the noses of the Valar.

This is the theory that we came up with, based upon the Silmarillion. It actually would make a very interesting novel in itself...

"I believe you are very finely keeping the balance of good and bad in Sauron. Once he was creative and wanted to improve the World. Now, after 7000 years of defeats, he is very tired, hysterical and very cruel to those around him. Considering that Sauron has been embodied much longer than the wizards, he may have started to grow old mentally."

Yes, that would tend to make one feel very defeated and discouraged. Tolkien said that Sauron was becoming more like Saruman, and we all know how petty Saruman was.

"But still he is a god, not a man. You succeeded to show it, not to make him too human. Turighwethil is awesome and believable. Difficult not to pity her. I loved the portrayal of the two magic creatures. And the illusions on the walls were cleverly introduced, making the readers recall how the Dark side has fought for ages, fought through a long defeat."

Thank you. Smile smiley face

It was slightly difficult to capture the feeling of a wind spirit, for they are harder to portray than temperamental fire spirits (Sauron, balrogs), simple earth spirits (Yavanna, Radagast; Tom Bombadil, if one subscribes to the theory he is an earth maia), or water spirits (Ulmo, Ossë, mermaids). We have Manwë, who is very noble, and the helper eagles. So wind spirits would probably either be quite noble, or quite petty. And so we have Thuringwethil.

The illusions on the walls concept were Angmar's idea.

"The story even takes us to Angband of old, showing Sauron returning to his Master Morgoth after a major defeat, much like Angmar will return to Sauron very soon. Sauron got no pity from his Master, though he tried to put part of his blame on the poor bat. Angmar at least fought valiantly, not running away like Gorthaur. What will happen to him?"

Sauron probably learned many of his best tortures and punishments from his Master, for they were inflicted upon him...

I imagine that there would be some interesting arguments between Melkor and Sauron. After all, their philosophies are very different from each other. Melkor always wanted to destroy and create anew; Sauron loved Middle-earth and wanted the worship of everyone.

"Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it." - Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring, 396

Sauron was drawn to Melkor because of his power and way of expediting his will. Yet perhaps as time went by and Melkor became more bitter, Sauron worried for the sake of the lands which he loved, though he could do nothing against Melkor's plans. As the Valar and elves stay in Middle-earth, they become more and more attached to the world. The same would be true with Sauron.

This chapter offers a rather innovative explanation of what happened to Thuringwethil, and why Sauron dwelt for a time in Taur-nu-Fuin. We thought it fit into canon rather well, and was an interesting "gap-filler."

As for Angmar? You shall just have to wait and see. Smile smiley face

Again thank you for your kind words.

Elfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:53 pm

"At last there is a chapter entirely focused on the Morgul Lord! And I can say, I like how you portray him very much. I liked how he started to talk to Thamtan, deceptively friendly and ended with proposing him a duel. That made imminent sense that he didn’t bother to rave at the Maugoth, to call him names or something. There was no need, as Angmar already decided to take his life. So he just played like a cat with a mouse, perhaps for his own amusement, perhaps more for the other spectators. At least that is how I understood it."

You understood correctly. Nothing would be gained to go over his list of offenses. They were plain enough, and so he died. Smile smiley face

"And it looked like Angmar has offered Maugoth a choice. One alternative was a Morgul knife. Then he would have become like nazgul, only weaker, he would have had an invisible body and his fea, inhabiting it for all eternity."

Actually, the Morgul Lord never offered him a choice. He was showing Tahmtan what he was going to miss. The Morgul Lord considered it a far worse fate to be a disembodied fea than to be a weaker wraith who has at least a body. In the Circles, these wraith servants are of higher rank than the numerous wandering, weaker ghosts.

"(By the way I liked the reference to "the crew as merry as ours"! Perhaps he was not entirely joking…)"

Actually, he was not. There are some who enjoy their ill-gotten life and live it to the fullest with no regrets.

"But what was the other choice, the one that he has finally "chosen"?
It looks, he was killed, the body destroyed. But he was not permitted to go to Mandos. Thamtan was left with only a houseless fea, bound to the ME, and specifically to Angmar. He became a spirit, not a wraith. Perhaps he would have a possibility to inhabit other bodies, or animate skeletons, like the Barrow-wights? Did I get it right?
Liked the Black Speech chant, intoned softly as a welcoming bidding."

Yes, you get it exactly. Tahmtan is like a barrow wight but not that powerful. Perhaps as his spirit grew older, he would gain in power, but that is theoretical.

"It looks like with the Ruling Ring on Sauron’s finger and Angmar’s own returned back to him, the two were able to communicate at a distance directly, not like during the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, when messengers were needed."

This is based on how the Elves knew instantly of Sauron's designs when He put on the One Ring and intoned the inscription. All Nine had had their Rings return, so they were participating in thought-speech over a distance.

"'My little King'…Grr.. Not at all nice to be called that. As well as 'My most loyal thrall'."

There are certain insults that are more painful than others. Those were two of them, and there are more.

"It is really disturbing to read how Sauron felt at home in nazgul’s minds. Their fate is surely not to be envied. I readily believe they were tortured when he was displeased. There must have been a reason for their fear of the fire. I agree that he may have threatened them with destroying their rings. But he is hardly likely to do it, is he? If one nazgul is gone irretrievably, the Nine will never be complete, and that weakens the whole Ring-scheme."

Of course Sauron will not throw any of their Rings in the fire. That is all just a bluff. Over time, they realized that, but it is still a powerful threat.

"Sauron is not too political, refusing the exchange of prisoners. Why was he so stubborn? Just didn’t want to loose face, or he wanted those women and children too much?"

He did not want to lose face before the West and show weakness. He was rather distraught that day and even maiar make mistakes.

"Angmar had a good idea to use the truce to save his battered army. Strange Aragorn has not thought of it."

Sooner or later, one side or the other must either yield or retreat.

Thank you for reading and thank you for your comments. Both mean a lot to Elfhild and me.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:31 pm

“Very interesting, indeed, all those dark memories that start to resurface in the nazgul’s minds. I wonder was it an intention of Sauron meant to punish them, or was their own control just slipping? Or perhaps Sauron himself got so distressed, that His control over them was slipping?”

Sauron is very distressed about many things. Smile smiley face

That will be revealed in later chapters.

“It is a new idea that the Numenorean nazgul had no memories of their past lives. It is fascinating. When did Sauron take their memory? Back in the Second Age?”

In this AU, He took it from the three Numenoreans in the Second Age. Khamûl always kept a great portion of his memory, and the other Five retained a degree of theirs. It would seem pointless to fill their minds with too many memories because they might be inclined to dwell upon them and not do their jobs as they should be doing them.

“However, I believe their appearance left no doubt that they were Numenoreans. They were just so distinct from others physically, and much taller also.”

Yes, they can tell that the others are Numenorean, but what exactly their connection is at this time is hidden by Sauron.

“The Morgul Lord started to act better, IMHO, regaining his composure. He at last gave some orders to the troops and prevented his fellows from bickering.”

He has not been having a good day. Smile smiley face

“Thantam is plain stupid. Why had he left his banners? I think he had the opportunity to take them.”

He did have the opportunity to take them, but the enemies could see him retreating from the field. Being the coward that he is, he decided to try to sneak off the field, but other eyes are always watching.

“Thank you for bringing out Bashrash and Lugag again. I will never forget how they ate a turtle in SD!”

The turtle eating was one of my favorite things. The meat of land turtles often is poisonous, depending somewhat on the last thing they ate. Orcs must have stomachs made of cast iron. Smile smiley face

I always missed Bashrash and Lugag in the Circles, and now I believe I have done them their dues. Good lads, both of them.

“I think it sounds true that Aragorn would hive Easterling men quarter. But I have more problems with the parley. Somehow I feel that they would not treat with Mordor, convinced as they were that the Enemy would cheat them anyway. The Parley at Morannon in LOTR was just a show, I believe, to give Frodo time, not done in earnest. So I was much surprised to see this truce sought by the West.”

In this AU, I try to do things with a little more realism. I think in this situation, since there have been a great number of women and children taken, that he will make an attempt to get them back. I felt I needed to state this anyway for the readers because this public rejection of the offer will play a part in future developments in the story. I used as a model the exchange system used during the American Civil War. At first, both sides would have agreements to exchange prisoners with so many privates equaling a lieutenant, etc. As the war progressed, it was felt by General Grant, Union Army Commander, that every Rebel that was released was just one more man to add to the fighting force. I do not think he liked making this decision, but he wanted to shorten the end of the war by whatever means.

Glad you enjoyed the chapter.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:53 pm

"The cavalry battle goes ill for the Easterlings, as it had to be expected. Poor Tooraj! He died a hero. I also have a feeling that Kourosh will hardly survive the battle. Doungha, on the other hand, perhaps, will survive. (Aganuzir’s little prophecy)."

Agan,

Perhaps, perhaps not. Smile smiley face

We will see. I will have to ask Gothmog and Krak how their bets are being placed. Gothmog will wager on anything.

"Awesome description of the battle and of Kapurdri effect on Doungha. Kourosh was not affected, but, I think, he was not permitted to drink, being a high-ranking officer. That will weaken him in hand-to-hand encounter."

No, Kourosh did not partake of the kapurdri, unlike the overall commander of the army, Tahmtan, who drank the brew forbidden to high-ranking officers.

"The nazgul are flying yet again, though now it is perilous. Interesting personalities they are. Rut is quite a nice chap, I believe. Udu seems serious and responsible and has some good humour. Angmar is brave, sure, but I would have liked him to do something about the actual leading of the army. The army near the Gates needs to be prepared for the cavalry attack, I bet they are disorganized and frightened. What is Tahmtan doing, by the way?"

Angmar will be leading battles in the far distant future, but that is another tale. No spoilers about Tahmtan. Smile smiley face

"Loved the nazgul song. Why does it end with 'Agan' in Adunaic, not 'Matum' in the Black Speech? And how do you explain that the nazgul’s spell was affecting Rohan horses but not Mordorian ones?"

This is a variation of the Death Spell, which was done entirely in Adunaic. That was one of the difficult translations I have ever undertaken. "Agan" was used because Angmar actually prefers the use of Adunaic to Black Speech. The rebel in him shows again.

The spell was only on the enemies, while a calming spell, which had been put on before, was still on the Mordorian horses. I spent endless hours pondering what logic could possibly apply to the willingness of the mumakil and Easterlings' horses during the Battle of Pelennor. Obviously, there were two different phenomena utilized here, one a spell of fear cast upon enemies and the other a spell of calming on allies. Otherwise, there is no possible logical explanation of Tolkien's rendition of the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

"I thought, Angmar had lost his bow when he caught fire. Where has he got a new one?"

He did not get a new one. The problem was a mistake in the use of numbers. I relied upon a later version of Chapter 26 when I should have stayed with the original. Therefore, I made a mistake. It has been amended.

"That is really a pity that the nazgul were unable to kill at least one of the enemy lords! (At least that Imrahil. I never liked the guy.) Why so? Do you need them for further story?"

I never liked Imrahil either. Imrahil the displaced prince, should he appear again in the Circles, will no doubt be quite disgruntled at the loss of his fiefdom. Will he find that he has to live in Dunharrow with his future son-in-law? Perhaps I should not think this way. I could see a whole sub-story set in the Circles universe about the canon characters.

The problem with killing off canon characters is that perhaps someday in the future the author might wish that he hadn't. Canon characters who seem secondary or unimportant actually have very important roles in both the canon and any story based upon it. For us to kill any of them would be a major decision.

In Second Darkness, a writer, who was rash, killed off Faramir, Legolas, Gimli, Elladan and Ellohir. That was a mistake; none of these characters needed to die. Faramir is very important as the Steward of Gondor. While Legolas seems like just a secondary character, he is the son of the Elvenking. The twins are sons of an elf lord. Gimli was an important dwarf. On the other hand, OC's are open game.

By the way, in Chapter 24, Elfhelm, who had been killed in Second Darkness, was resurrected. As a skilled military commander, he was simply a too valuable character to throw away lightly.

"And why didn’t Angmar send someone to help Udu and Zagbolg?"

Wait for the next few chapters.

"Loved the nazgul talk about women right in the midst of the battle. Rohirric, Dwarves, even Hobbits…Yes, nazgul must be somewhat allergic to hobbits by that time."

Not only the Nazgul, but the authors, have developed a very strong allergic reaction against hobbits, both because of Second Darkness and Angmar's (the author) long-time prejudice against them.

Yes, Nazgul think about the opposite sex quite often. Wherever they are - in the midst of battle, flying in the air, reading books, relaxing, expounding on some idea, spying, on a quest - their thoughts are seldom wholly upon what they set out to do. Of course, the very concept of "Nazgul romance" has earned us some of the harshest criticism of all in the past. But we never let that bother us. Smile smiley face

"I am afraid Rut will not have his 'week in bed with the best Rohirric wenches.' He will get 'loving chastisement' from Sauron instead… Why didn’t Krak have any women of his own?"

Rut should forget those ideas right now, for something else is surely in store for him. Krak does not have any women right at this time. That does not say anything about the past or future. Smile smiley face

"Thank you for including maps in your website version, they are of great help."

Glad you liked them and I hope they made what was going on clearer. I am still working on one to show the close in fighting which will be transpiring at the Deep.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:34 pm

Aganuzir,

"Awesome chapter, Angmar! Much as I liked your battle chapters and Elfhild’s wonderful insights into Rohan girls’ mentality, this chapter surpasses all the others, IMO."

Thank you. This is one of the most difficult chapters I ever wrote. This chapter will set the stage for the entire association of Sauron and Angmar and the Mouth.

"I have never read a portrayal of Sauron so close to Tolkien’s own ideas, expressed in his Letters. Sauron is usually understood as a maniacal, utterly evil, destructive being. And a not-so-bright being, in addition. Those who have read only LOTR (I don’t even mention the movie-fans) probably get this impression. The fact that Sauron wanted to bring order into the World, is practically unknown, or misunderstood. I think, that putting several quotes from the “Letters” at the end of the chapter was a very good idea: few have read them before."

The nature of Sauron cannot be remotely understood unless one has read the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Lost Tales. It also helps to read the Letters and HOME. To see Sauron as a "maniacal, utterly evil, destructive being" is a shallow interpretation, but I know many do, especially movie fans and those who have read only LOTR. These portrayals of Sauron as a fiend who clasps his hands gleefully and laughs wildly, "I am evil!" while being surrounded by a group of dim-witted henchmen is a cliche of standard, stereotypical villains. This image is only a reflection of immature minds who see everything as either black or white.

I see Sauron basically as Tolkien saw him, "a reformer" who became too caught up in his own reforms. Tolkien basically said the same thing about Saruman. This desire to reform or preserve is a major theme in Tolkien's writings. Sauron is a powerful being whose makeup is designed to create, order and help. That is forgotten so many times in writing about him.

The quotes from the "Letters" are to help readers understand more about this side of this misunderstood and misinterpreted character.

"I am glad that you have not fallen into the opposite pit, so to say. You have not made Sauron totally righteous, misunderstood creature. You have made him really true to Tolkien."

No one in the Circles is truly righteous. There are merely degrees of "unrighteousness."

"I easily believe that he still wanted to do Good. Not real good, but what he perceived as Good. And he was not restricted in his means and methods at all. I believe he really suffered a lot when nobody really understood him. And the long chain of defeats could affect even a maia. Yet it rings true that he still understood the meaning of justice and even mercy."

Yes, I see Sauron as wanting to do good, but he will use whatever means he can to achieve his own ideas of "good." I also see him as having a streak of pettiness. That seems to be a common fault of Ainur. He holds grudges and often revenge is one of his motivations. Remember the slaying of Celerimbidor and use of his body as a standard for Sauron's troops.

"But your safety has passed. He does not need you - he has many more useful servants - but he won't forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge! ... It has everything to do with it. ... You do not know the real peril yet; but you shall." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p. 58

So while Sauron has a desire to be good, his very methods and personal faults lead to evil, and thus he becomes a victim of his own desires. The malicious side of Sauron was most often seen in Second Darkness in the many "Torture of Frodo" logs. Smile smiley face

"Mouth of Sauron is also exactly as I thought he was. Here, I think we have very few Tolkien writings to rely upon, either that he was cunning and crueler than any orc. But there must have been something appealing to Sauron in this guy, either than his cruelty and servility. I think you succeeded to portray him as Sauron’s most trusted servant, ALMOST his only friend, or somebody approaching a friend as closely as the Maia could ever permit."

Possibly at the beginning of their association, Sauron could see in the Mouth a human mind similar to his own. Although we are not told this, perhaps the Mouth was as eager to bring about reforms or order as his master (given the interpretation of "order" as Sauron might see it.) I do not think Sauron was looking for another cruel accomplice; there are plenty of them to be found, ie, thieves, criminals, etc. I think there must have been a meeting of minds and this is what made the Mouth what was, perhaps, Sauron's only friend, keeping in consideration as what I see as the natural aloofness of the Maia.

I also suspect that Sauron trusted the Mouth in a way - trusted him not to be too ambitious. He could, if he wanted, see to the soul of someone who was willing.

"I like you were true to Tolkien, making Mouth a mortal man. Strangely enough, often he is portrayed as a Second Age relic, somehow preserved for so long, even without a Ring. Actually, the Mouth might have been of the same age or only slightly older than Aragorn. A middle-aged man by Numenorean standards."

I have tried to analyze the Mouth from both perspectives, and finally have concluded the same as you. Perhaps, though, he held the hopes of attaining a form of immortality. We plan to explore that view in the future, ie, prolonging life with magical draughts.

"And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive...." - The Mouth of Sauron, The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King, p. 166

I do not think that is meant as an idle boast. Sauron succeeded with the Nazgûl, imperfectly, as I am sure the Mouth would consider, but it was a way.

Sauron has not come back into his full power, yet. Perhaps the Mouth is hopeful that Sauron will someday find a way to preserve him, an act of sub-creation. After all, that was a major goal of Black Numenoreans, eternal life.

"I don’t know why, but I always imagined that the Mouth should hate the Nazgul and be jealous of them. I see you had the same impression. And, of course, the fact that the Morgul Lord was allowed to rule his own city, use his own sigil and banner called for envy."

I agree. I think he would both hate them and be envious of them. They could live forever, but yet he could not. Perhaps he felt Sauron slighted him. After all, evidentially Sauron had promised him control of Isengard if all went well.

"Was Mouth right? What has happened to Angmar?"

"After that bloody battle at the Fords of Ethring, the tides began to turn in favor for the West, for the valor of the Gondorians and Riders of Rohan had won the battle and saved the day. For a time, the forces of the Enemy were loath to continue fighting, for the Gondorians proved to be dour-handed warriors who would not willingly surrender the lands that were dear to them and the Rohirrim were no less valiant a foe." - Chapter 4, "The Clouds of War"

"Great was the slaughter until at last the forces of the Enemy lost heart in the middle of that month and let Dol Amroth be for a time." - Chapter 4, "The Clouds of War"

Defeated at the Fords of Ethring and then again at Dol Amroth - how many defeats can the Morgul Lord bear before he has doubts about himself? What about this bold Rohirric maiden who dared challenge him with sword and shield? What about her companion who wielded a blade of Westernsee? He would recognize that and wonder why the "Bane of Mordor" had made another appearance. Defeats and old threats by the hand of new foes - yes, I think all these things would be more than a bit disconcerting.

"I like the reference to 'Angmar’s past record'. Indeed, he thought more of his own kingdoms than of helping his weak Master."

More of his "past record," plans and hopes will be shown in the future. Six hundred years of his own rule - that would not be forgotten.

"I totally agree with the Mouth here. I had the same impression when I read LOTR. I always wondered why the Dark Lord had not reached the same conclusion himself?"

He does in the Circles and he is not pleased at all.

"There seem only to have been five of the enemy. Why they were not all here, I don't know; but I don't think they expected to be resisted. They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They will come again another night, if we cannot escape. They are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further. I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will. We shall see!" - Strider, "Flight to the Ford," Fellowship of the Ring, p. 209-10

Why do they wait so many days? If any of them had thought to bring a bow and quiver, they could have just lain in wait and possibly shot Aragorn at long range and picked off some of the hobbits, even Frodo, as well. Why did they tarry and draw off? It does not seem logical that it would be fear of Aragorn, though he did not seem susceptible to spells or fear. Angmar does challenge Gandalf briefly at Pelennor and he would be far more formidable than a human foe. The Nazgûl are far from efficient here and are sluggish in their efforts.

Either they blundered on purpose or they blundered by accident, their lack of wisdom possibly caused by the fact the Eru and the Valar were playing them as fools.

"Peering out, Frodo saw that the night was still clear. The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill." - Strider, Fellowship of the Ring, p. 187

The Sickle is the Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar. This, I think, is one of those clues to the reader that all will be well for Frodo and his companions. Every west wind, every sunbeam, every twinkling star, are all omens that the Ring will be destroyed and Sauron defeated. The whole thing is a setup by Eru and the Valar, and Fellowship members are merely pawns in the designs of the Powers to get rid of a pesky Maia.

We will be going on this theory: "Indeed, he thought more of his own kingdoms than of helping his weak Master."

"Poor nazgul, 'the loving chastisement at the Hand of their Father' looms before them…"

Indeed. Smile smiley face

Sauron has plans for his own form of rebukes. "Whom the Gods wish to destroy, they first drive mad." Perhaps not totally in this case, but the future looks bleak.

Angmar

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