Reviews by AngmarAndElfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:56 pm

Aganuzir,

"The chapters are truly captivating and very well written, as usual; especially I liked the description of the battlefield in chapter 24. Kourosh, Doungha and Touraj have already become dear to me."

Thank you very much for your well thought out and most appreciated review. These original characters, such as Kourosh, Daungha and Tooraj, have all the strengths, weaknesses and foibles of humans. None of them are "super heroes"; in actuality they are rather average.

The battlefield carnage is based on knowledge gained from long years of study of historic battles, going all the way back to Greek and Roman times. I have added the realism that only the photographs of actual bloating corpses and the faces of death in the Civil War can have.

"I fear for their fate at the hands of inhuman foes, the Elves. Even the accursed Glorfindel came at last out of Rivendell! What is worse, the Powers seemed to meddle again directly into the affairs of Middle Earth, affecting weather."

In my rereadings of Lord of the Rings, I began to look for signs that the Valar were more active than they appeared to be on the surface. There are hints all the way through: the Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar; western breezes; sunlight gleaming off barrow treasures, on Eowyn's hair and Theoden's shield; the stars obscured by clouds and the clouds being blown away, such as at Pelennor; "cleansing" rains; use of the eagles; and perhaps the most obvious, the Istari's appearance - Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the two Blue Wizards.

Signs that Mordor seems to be gaining in power are chill eastern or northern winds and clouds of darkness which obscure the stars.

Weather is not just weather in Middle-earth. I believe that the weather signifies the Powers of Arda striving against each other. As an example, see this quote from The Hobbit:

"More terrible still are thunder and lightning in the [Misty] mountains at night, when storms come up from East and West make war. The lightning splinters on the peaks, and rocks shiver, and great crashes split the air and go rolling and tumbling into every cave and hollow; and the darkness is filled with overwhelming noise and sudden light." - The Hobbit, "Over Hill and Under Hill," page 66

One time in Second Darkness, there was a subtle battle between the western and northern/eastern breezes. Smile smiley face

I always admired the similarity between the Silmarillion and Greek and Roman mythology. During the siege of Troy, the gods and goddesses favor one side or the other. Tolkien never indicates that the Valar are directly involved but he hints at the behind-the-scenes involvement all the way through LOTR. I decided in the Circles to lean more towards Greek and Roman mythology, and while the Valar will not take an active part in what happens, they will be watching from time to time. In Book of Lost Tales, Tulkas and Oromë have much fiercer tempers, but for the sake of the preservation of Middle-earth, they will not become that extreme in The Circles.

"By the way, how many Elves do you believe were left in ME by this time? I always had an impression that they were too few to be able to put forth a sufficient force anymore."

That is the same impression that I have had. However, it was decided in Second Darkness that the only way that there would be any chance at all for the West to win was if the Elves came to the aid of the Rohirrim and Gondorians. The writer for Elves in SD set a ridiculously high number for the Elves and I discounted that in the Circles. There, their chief benefit to the West is to add more numbers to a greatly lessened force of Rohirrim and for the sheer psychological force the Elves would impart upon their enemies.

"Looking at the direction of the Mordor army, I have a feeling that it could have been better."

Long ago I realized that to make orderly, reasonable sense out of these battles in Middle-earth, I needed to depart a good deal from the fantasy element. Therefore, I have relied upon my knowledge of military history and applied the factors of false judgment, mistakes, poor planning, temper, over-eager optimism, and other elements involved in historic battles.

As well as being based somewhat on Fornost, the Second Battle of Helm's Deep is also very loosely based on the Second Battle of Franklin, Tennessee, November 30, 1864. Here the Union Army of Ohio, led by Major General John M. Schofield, and the Confederate Army of Tennessee, commanded by General John Bell Hood, fought a decisive battle which ended in victory for the Union forces.

"The Lieutenant of the army, Tahmtan, seems hopelessly drunk (kapurdi overdose) and useless."

General John Bell Hood, the Southern Commander at Franklin, had a withered arm and an amputated leg and had to be hoisted upon his saddle and strapped on the horse. Because of his battle injuries, he had become addicted to laudanum (a tincture of opium in whiskey) and was often incompacitated by his addiction. He was reckless to the point of foolishness and was very erratic in his behavior.

Angered by the fact that General Scofield's forces had marched around his army in the night when Hood was "stoned" on opium, he vowed to destroy Scofield's army. Because of his emotional problem, he was also angry at his own army, considering them weak. He was determined to prove that his men could attack a heavy defended Union position in breastworks and he hurled his army against the Union forces over and over again in seventeen distinct assaults over five hours. In the process, he destroyed his own army.

"Having proved even to Hood's satisfaction that they could assault breastworks, the Army of Tennessee had shattered itself beyond the possibility of ever doing so again." — Historian James McPherson, "Battle Cry of Freedom"

"The Morgul Lord made a mistake to leave him in charge."

The Southern President, Jefferson Davis, who had put Hood in charge learned much to his chagrin that Hood was a terrible mistake for the South.

"Perhaps, he had to join the other Eight to increase the combined power, which was greater when all the Nine were assembled.
But still the nazgul could do little against the Elves. They would have done better to go harass the regrouping Rohirrim instead."

The shock of seeing Glorfindel proved too much for the Morgul Lord and he let his anger take charge, a serious mistake for leaders in battle. "'Aim for the bright one!' Angmar screamed, infuriated." To him, it appeared to be another Battle of Fornost and in his fears, he made it so. They will get back to the Rohirrim, though.

"As for Angmar, this time I am slightly disappointed. I feel he is not formidable enough in these chapters. He was once, when he saved Rut. But on other occasions, he looks too emotional for my taste, loosing his temper with underlings and elves and struggling out of his coat instead of quenching the fire by magick."

Yes, in this battle it was meant for him to be weak. The psychological impact of once again seeing the old enemy of Fornost would tell even on him. The sheer surprise of the Rohirrim's advent on the battle, along with the elves who had never, ever been expected; the very stress of the battle; seeing his own forces losing; the stress of the consequences should he fail; Sauron's voice in his mind; the Nazgûl bickering among themselves, reflecting old grievances, both personal and politic - the sum of it all had its effect. It is no small wonder that he lashed out even at one of his closest brothers, Rutfîmûrz. At least he has not retreated so far.

"It would have been better to interrupt the Black Shadow spell, instead of loosing his face like that. He also lost his verbal exchange with Glorfindel. In general, he could have used more humor and patience."

Angmar lost all the way around and the battle is not yet over.

"Interesting, that the nazgul use spell-songs. I don’t think Tolkien ever described them singing, not shrieking."

These "songs" are more in the vein of Sauron's "Song of Sorcery" where both he and Finrod Felagund were in a sorcery match. It is not actual singing; it is more chanting in sing-song poetic words. However, to everyone on the ground, it sounds like incomprehensible, shrieking which freezes the blood of mortal enemies. The Nazgûl will be "singing" (chanting) more in a subsequent chapter.

Remember the harshness of the Black Speech in which they sing/chant. This will never sound pleasant to mortal ears.

"It was a call, or a signal - there were words in that cry, though I could not catch them. But no hobbit has such a voice." - Frodo Baggins, "A Shortcut to Mushrooms," Fellowship of the Ring, p. 100

"The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion, p. 289

"Tolkien wrote in the Unfinished Tales, that Khamul was the most powerful of the nazgul, after the Black Captain himself, but I don’t think Tolkien has ever described either of them as being 'devout'. Were they, really? Slaves of the Nine Rings, yes, but 'devout' to Sauron?"

I think with some of the Nine kings it would be a forced devotion, while I believe that others might have been actual worshipers of the Dark Lord in the Second Age. Tolkien described the Nine as warriors in a "religious cult." Perhaps the ones that are the most loyal and "devout" are the most grateful for their ill-gotten span of long life and their power. Khamûl, since his true name has possibly been retained, might be considered as one of these. A future chapter will touch upon this.

"The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the other Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. ... [The Nazgûl's] weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility." - Tolkien Letter #246, page 331 (In this "What if?" scenario by Tolkien, the Eight Nazgûl arrive at the Crack of Doom while Frodo is wearing the One Ring.)

"I like nazgul bickering constantly. It must be trying to serve in a company composed of 9 egotistic ex-Kings."

Over a course of time last year, Elfhild and I wrote almost sixty chapters (as yet still in the raw form and unedited). When these are finally ready, you will see what life is like lived among all Nine of them. There will be friendships and rivalries and old scores never settled. And bickering, oh yes, always that.

"But I have problems with Skrishau’s character. I remember him from SD, he was really QUIET, spending his days flying between Rohan, Barad-Dur and Dol-Guldur in an endless circle and happy in his solitude. I liked him very much like that. But in the Circles, something has happened to Skri. He is again a remarkable, but a quite different personality. And you have to agree, he is not QUIET anymore. He is the pain in the neck of the whole company. If he is called “quiet”, it could only be in jest."

In his cycle of delivering messages, he was very quiet. He feels that he is too removed from everything even to speak to mortals unless he is forced by circumstances to do so. In the battle, when nerves were fraying, he lost his usual reticence and took the opportunity to hurl a few verbal darts at his brothers. The Nine act one way around each other and an entirely different way around mortals.

In Second Darkness, I was never allowed to develop their personalities in the direction I wanted to take them. Yes, his name "Quiet" sometimes is more of a jest. This might also express the way the Eight wish he would be. Smile smiley face

His humor is not always appreciated. He is a good fellow, really, once you get to know him.

"Strange that the nazgul do not wear their Rings. (I think they do not, as their clothes are visible). I believe, from LOTR it is clear, that to wield the power of a ring one must put it on. I think wielding rings to full power could have helped a lot."

They do have their Rings, but they are about their necks, though I think by this time they might have mastered the ability to appear visible, either by sorcery or the power of their minds. But there are great numbers of people on the field and that is too much to ask even for them. They are having to do many things here, unleash the Black Shadow, strengthen the morale of their men, read signals and signs from the beasts, concentrate on the enemy, withstand any spells the Elves might be directing towards them and dodge those arrows, which are a threat to their beasts far more than they are to them.

Why the desire to be visible? Would they not be more formidable and fearful if they were totally invisible, which they would be if they wore their Rings? Then there is a question of greater safety by being totally invisible. They have choices to make, whether they make the right ones or wrong ones. Here, I think they would want their own troops to see them. It would be very damaging to the Mordorians' morale if they could not see where their own "talisman of fortunes" are.

"Loved the long-forgotten memory of Angmar flashing through Rut’s mind. It makes one want to learn more… It is things like that that I find most captivating."

There is much more already written that tells of the friendships that were made and of connections forged long years before that sometimes come to the surface of memory and then vanish away. There is One who has taken away the memory and only One who can restore it. Whether He does or not will happen only if it would serve His own purposes.

"All in all, it was a pleasure reading these chapters."

This was indeed a flawed battle on the part of Mordor, while the Elves, Rohirrim and Gondorians had nearly a perfect one. Tolkien did the same thing, but we tried to give more of a realistic flavor than the "they all ran from the light of the elves' faces" type of thing.

When the Second Darkness roleplay was in progress last summer, the other writers used everything from ents to eagles as attack forces, destroying part of the causeway and putting in a drawbridge (which was confusing to deal with), having Radagast making dynamite and cannon balls thrown from trebuchets, "every elf is worth 10 orcs," and Gandalf blowing up trolls. All this was quite a bit too much for me as gamemaster and I wanted to forget the whole roleplaying episode. With constant criticism that "your Nazgûl are too powerful," when actually they did not do very much, I was feeling disheartened afterwards and vowed never to include the Second Battle of Helm's Deep in the Circles. Elfhild (although she was writing on the opposite side) encouraged me this year to undertake the task again, which I did with the greatest fear and trepidation. Cutting out the marching force of ents, eagles, and all the spectacular fireworks displays, I agreed to undertake the task of revision. I do feel that I have been through quite a few battles of my own in all this. Smile smiley face

In the process, I have come to respect and hate Helm's Deep and consider it a morass and a death trap. If I ever do this again in a roleplay, I will just besiege them, cut off all supplies and let them starve. Smile smiley face

As an interesting side note about flawed battles which could be projected to this battle in the Circles - at Franklin, the Southerners had 38,000 men to the Union's 32,000, but the casualties showed the folly of Hood's poor battle strategy. There were 2,326 casualties for the Union and 6,261 for the Confederates. These numbers include 15 Confederate generals killed on the battlefield and 65 field-grade officers. A total catastrophe for the Southern force.

For any interested, you can find more about the Battle of Franklin at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Franklin

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:52 pm

Aganuzir,

"A very captivating chapter. I loved the interaction between Thamtan and the Nine. Both chilling and hilarious. 'The Silent Ones' must be simple wraiths (morgul-knife products)?"

Glad you enjoyed the chapter. "The Silent Ones" - some are the products of Morgul Blades but the others - many are not sure about them. They should be watched. Smile smiley face

"The Morgul Lord was great!"

After roleplaying Angmar for almost two years, I feel now we have much in common. Smile smiley face

"Why did the Eighth Nazgul (Skrishau?) smile morbidly at the mention of Gandalf? Has he got something personal against the Wizard?"

Skrishau has a morbid sense of humor. There is nothing personal against the Wizard, but Number Eight has been known on occasion to enjoy watching and dealing torture. (More than one occasion actually...)

He will be back from time to time with his droll wit. Smile smiley face

"It is a bit strange that the Morgul Lord has left the actual direction of the troops to the Easterling, and joined the other Eight to fly over the besieged fortress. He could have helped at the gates, at least. It was not his way at the Pelennor."

This is my second summer of exploring ways to attack Helm's Deep. I am getting to feel at home in the place. Smile smiley face

To get to the Gate of Helm's Deep, one must first ride up a bridge (Tolkien called it a causeway) over the Deeping Stream and then up a ramp which is raised above the surface of the Hornrock. With a battering ram on that reasonably high and narrow bridge, there is not much space to work with (the Atlas estimates that the ramp is only 10 feet wide). If the defenders charged out of the gate (as they did in the book and movie), the enemies on the bridge would either be cast or forced to jump from the ramp or topple from the bridge, fall into a gorge and land in the Deeping Stream. An orc would stand a good chance of breaking bones or dying from the fall and a falling rider and his horse would possibly land in the stream, resulting in injury and/or death.

I can comment personally on the sensation of riding a horse over a narrow, dangerous causeway in a perilous situation. When I was a teenager (many long years ago), some friends and I were out riding on the main highway. Traffic was bad and so I had what I thought was a "brilliant" idea - get off the main road, short cut across country. Then we would ride beside the tracks over a high, built up railroad ramp and bridge. The space along the tracks was very narrow and the horses resented very much putting their feet down on the ties. The ramp itself was high and then we came to the bridge. There was a great drop down to the water and the expanse was long. If a train had come from either direction, it would be either face the train or the drop to the water, both probably ending in death. Yes, it was foolish but we are inclined to do those things when we are younger. Smile smiley face

In this situation, I felt the Morgul Lord might show more prudence than I did. Then again, maybe not. Smile smiley face

At Minas Tirith, the ground before the gates is relatively flat with a gentle slope. It is far more approachable on horseback or on foot than Helm's Deep with its daunting causeway and the possibility of the foe rushing out upon the attackers. The last thing Angmar wants to do is plunge over the side of the causeway into rocky stream. The horse does not think much of it either. Smile smiley face

Here is a picture of the movie's Helm's Deep which does not completely agree with Tolkien's drawing or the Atlas:
http://www.lordoftherings.net/legend/lands/helmsdeep/images/helmsdeep1_large.jpg
The bridge (Causeway) can be seen to the right.

Here is Tolkien's drawing of Helm's Deep. The author of the page thinks that this sketch might be an interim drawing, but it is very close to what is in the canon.
http://larsen-family.us/~1066/jrrhelmsdeep.html

Here is the drawing from the German version of the Atlas of Middle-earth:
http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/HDR/thumbs/imagepages/helms klamm.html
The Ramp is called "Rampe" and the Causeway is called "Dammweg." The "Großes Tor" is the Great Gate.

Whether one chooses to accept Tolkien's drawing, the Atlas, the film or their own ideas, still Helm's Deep is a formidable foe.

"Poor Dungha, still dreaming of blue eyes and the directives.
I liked the description of the Khandrim cavalry's preparations for battle. So exotic, with berserker draughts and dancing virgins. Interesting that the nazgul are referred to as Priest-Kings and Gods. Was it the draught that made nazgul presence feel intoxicating, 'raining down feelings of benediction upon all the troops'?"

Though the Nazgul were intoning spells all during the situation, the draught had more to do with it than anything. After drinking the draught, the virgins danced before them. The dance coincided with the mild, preliminary phases of hallucinogenic mushroom ingestion. By the time that was over, the men would be on their way to being mentally prepared for battle. The Nazgûl's spells continued the euphoria and then when the mushrooms had done their work, the men would be more than ready to kill anything or anyone in sight. Indeed these men are very much like the Berserkers of Old Norse, Scythians and other peoples of Europe and Asia.

Tolkien himself called the Numenorean kings "Priest-kings." He likened the Nazgul to members of a religious cult. Since the Nine are closest to Sauron, they are dark "priest-kings" in a sense. It is always encouraging to know "that the gods are with us."

"It seems that the Easterlings are not aware that the 'Unholy Gods in the Dark Temple' in Numenor are the same as they are currently worshiping, and that their own Master has built the Temple on the Island..."

Obviously over a period of time, history was forgotten (if some of the people to the Far East ever knew about Numenor or the Temple) and re-told by Sauron's agents. The Dark Lord always likes to see the truth being twisted, especially when it benefits Him. Sauron probably considers it all a very humorous jest, but the methods are very effective in thought control. After enough time and propounding lies and trickery, the truth is forgotten and twisted myths live on.

(Since this is an AU, medium for exploration, and deals with "what might have been if the War of the Rings had a different outcome," all views that are expressed are those of the authors. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to view things in an Alternative Universe. We try to base everything we write on much research in many areas and logic. Whether we succeed or fail, we always have fun trying and writing, and life is far too short not to do something that is enjoyable to one's self and hopefully to others.)

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:02 am

"But I have a question that probably belongs more to the 'Hunger' chapter. Why didn't Elfhild think of the possibility to ask the Easterlings about the outcome of the Pelennor Battle? They still had no idea what had happened to Rohan army, to their menfolk. Wouldn't the possibility to learn their fate be a much stronger motive to join the Easterlings than the sweetmeats?"

At the time the "Hunger" chapter takes place (June 5 - Utana's troop got there on the 4th), the men have not been there long and the twins do not know what types they are. Elffled was traumatized by the three kisses and thus was paranoid. The older women of this troop, like many others, have a stiff-necked pride and did not wish to fraternize with the enemy. They would think it to be stooping low to ask the accursed Easterlings for food or news. Elfhild was easily swayed by a boring diet and curiosity, but fear of past experiences made her sister's determination strong and Elfhild did not press her. If there had been younger girls in the troop, Elfhild would have gone with them to see the Easterlings and left her sister behind.

If Elfhild had talked with the men, probably she would have been too timid to ask for anything other than for food, and if she did get enough nerve to ask about the war in the South, they probably would have given her false information or propaganda.

Elfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:00 pm

"Who is screaming? The mother? why? Five minutes later she's saying he isn't dead. Shouldn't it be another woman who starts wailing?"

Breguswith, the mother, is by herself, having slept at a small distance away from the others in her troop, just like Elfhild and Elffled. They are not all that close together when they sleep, but the group does have its own assigned space away from the other groups. It is dark and no one can see. None of the women even knew what was going on and only started to stir from sleep after the wailing began.

This is more or less told from the point of view of Elfhild and Elffled and what they see and hear. The sequence goes like this in order:

The captives are sleeping.
The sounds of loud wailing are heard.
Elfhild asks her sister what is going on.
Elffled looks around but can see nothing clear in the darkness.
The other members of that troop of ten begin to stir and ask each other the same things.
The orcs start to complain about the wailing and then demand to know who is doing it.
There is another wail, then sobbing and the command of an orc guard to be quiet. "We'll hear no more of this! Close your trap! He is gone!"
There is a shriek and then the captives hear Breguswith cry, "He is not! He is not! He cannot be!" This identifies who is doing the wailing. Obviously she is distraught and quickly goes into denial.
The orc guard tells her that her baby is dead. Dialog ensues, showing that the woman is obviously hysterical with grief.

"Isn't striking the woman a violation of the Directive?"

The directives state: "All slaves are to be preserved intact except for the usual wear and tear of this commodity by travel or disease. No officer or man is allowed to do aught else than restrain female slaves or their issue by use of threat and intimidation, and no serious bodily injuries may be inflicted upon those in your care."

Slapping falls under "intimidation" and "restraining of female slaves" and not a "serious bodily injury." Mild forms of discipline are just common practice upon slaves and in the army, though only to be done when necessary. All along the orcs have been using whips to encourage slow walkers to speed up, though the blows hit covered legs and thus were not overly damaging to the skin, though mild scarring is perfectly acceptable according to the directives. This is a rough society and compassion is not that common. The laws are written for Mordorians in a land where torture, beheading and impaling are commonplace.

Elfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:28 pm

Aganuzir,

"You must be right about the necessity of stress relief in dire situations. Very interesting are your examples from the American Civil War. Thank you."

Besides the famous snowball battle, another of my favorite Civil War stories concerns the monotony of military life in long winter bivouacks. In some situations, the men would make rude huts out of whatever materials were available. It was not uncommon for some "wit" to block off the chimney of his "friends'" huts and watch to see what happened when the shelter filled with smoke. In a few cases, the offender, when caught, was beaten to within an inch of his life.

"And you have enlightening info on leeches and ticks, though the subject may be disturbing to some gentle souls..."

I tend to have that effect upon many. Twisted Evil smiley face

"Speaking of ticks (Ixodes spp.), here, unlike with leeches, I do have personal experience. There is nothing better than putting a drop of oil on them and waiting. Needing air, they detach quickly."

I will have to try that remedy next time. There are things a lot worse than ticks, such as hog lice. Very challenging to remove.

The account of using salt to remove leeches comes from some of my relatives who used it when they had the misfortune to have the parasites attached to them. People should not think, however, that by any means leeches are some great evil.

According to an article in "Science in Africa" by Aisha El-Awady, "The leech’s saliva is truly extraordinary containing a number of chemical compounds useful in medicine. These include a local anesthetic that the leech uses to avoid detection by the host, the anti-coagulant hirudin that can help prevent heart attacks and strokes, a vasodilator and a prostaglandin that help reduce swelling. The leech’s gut harbors a bacterium known as Aeromonan hydrophila. This bacterium aids in the digestion of ingested blood and produces an antibiotic that kills other bacteria that may cause putrefaction." (http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2003/july/leech.htm)

The article, "Maggots and Leeches Make a Comeback," by the way, might not be for the squeamish. However, anything that advances medical science is a positive factor in my book.

Angmar

***

"Thank you for replying to my other questions. Sorry, I have forgotten the Fourth Chapter. I had to re-read the story before asking, but having read SD, I now tend to mix what I know from SD and what from the Circles. My fault entirely."

So far, in the Circles, everything has been about Elfhild, Elffled or those with them. Chapter 4 "The Clouds of War" covers March 15 to mid-May 3019 and tells about the war in the South and other places of Middle-earth. As the story progresses, I might go back and add more details to this chapter. I have slightly edited it several times already since its original posting. Chapter 18 picks up on what happened after mid-May and advances that plotline up to June 5.

"It is an excellent idea, IMO. Personally, I always prefer things to be stated explicitly. I like them to be poetic, but I don't like them vague. Of course it is just my personal taste, no more. Many others may think differently."

The war shall not be so vague anymore. We have decided to linger there a while...

"No big deal, there were lots of maiar present. What were they doing in Aman for more than 6000 years? Bored to death, they were having tea with the Elves, telling them enlightening stories about the Music and the Creation of Arda."

Tea, talk, and never forget the pleasure gardens of Lórien in which grow fumellar, the flowers of sleep, or more commonly known as poppies. "There too grew the poppies glowing redly in the dusk, and those the Gods called fumellar the flowers of sleep - and Lórien used them much in his enchantments." - The Coming of the Valar, Book of Lost Tales

No wonder the Elves wanted to go to Valinor! Smile smiley face

Elfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:53 pm

Aganuzir,

"Strange that Swithulf, the simple miller's son, seems to know about Rivendell and the Elves dwelling there (as compared with Eomer's, as well as Boromir's and Faramir's, ignorance of the place in LOtR)."

In any army of any age of history, rumors among the men are always abundant. If some rumor starts, no matter how strange, it can spread like wildfire. Some are true, some are false and some are part truth. Somehow Swithulf had heard about the Elves, whether through "A friend who knows a fellow who has a cousin... told me" or actually hearing legitimate news. One thing would seem certain: these simple peasants have traveled far away from their homes and have come into contact with people whom they never would have met back in the village, and they know considerably more about the world than they did before.

These remarks about the Elves are also a form of foreshadowing. Tolkien and other writers have used this device to explain things. One character will say something just so another character will reply with the correct answer or elaboration. In this way, things are revealed to the reader.

"I liked the portraits of Osric, Oslaf and Swithulf. However, I would have expected their mood to be not so cheerful."

Eomer had allowed them to go hunting, knowing that this would both help add to the larder and give the men a morale boost. This hunting trip had brightened their moods considerably, and Osric, Oslaf and Swithulf were enjoying the comforts of sitting around the fire with full stomachs.

"'An old campaigner, I see,' he said. 'They say that men who go warring afield look ever to the next hope of food and drink...'" - Beregond, Minas Tirith

In war, there is a thing of stress relief after long marches and in camp, many times the men let it off in many ways - drinking, gambling, roughhousing, games, singing, swimming, sports and even plays, if they were bivouacked a while. A number of songs from the American Civil War were pure "fun songs" such as "Eating Goober Peas" and "Mister, Here's Your Mule" and were sung around many campfires at night. There was one bawdy comedy song from the Civil War that told about an actual businessman, John Haroldson, who wanted to collect the contents of chamberpots so that the nitre in urine could be salvaged and combined with charcoal and sulfur and made into gunpowder. The song is sung to the tune of "O Christmas Tree." They had fun at the camps. Smile smiley face

There was one memorable case in the American Civil War where the Southern troops engaged in a massive snowball battle while encamped for the winter. Even officers participated and the men were so enthusiastic in their mock battle that a number of bloodied faces and broken limbs were reported as a result of too earnest participation.

I always found the scene in the old film "All Quiet on the Western Front" a memorable one. In one scene the German soldiers, who are now in France, go to a river, pond or stream where they laugh and splash in the water like young boys. I cannot remember all the details of this film, but I think by this time, these fellows were on their way to becoming seasoned warriors.

Now that I think of it, the scenes are similar, but I did not pattern the scene at the pond on either the book or the film. I just know how people behave when there is a break in the cruel realities of war.

"And another thing, as far as I know, the best way to get rid of a leech is to touch it with a burning twig. It would be easier than to waste precious salt on it."

There are several methods to remove aquatic leaches, whether touching it with a burning twig, salting them, using your fingers to work their suckers out, applying vinegar, using sand to rub them off, etc. The salting method is the one with which I am most personally familiar, so I went with that. I have had experience removing ticks by using still-hot match heads and applying them to their rear. In a number of those cases, the ticks died before they ever backed out and I ended up pulling them off with my fingers. Some people, who are not squeamish, just pull leeches off like ticks. Leeches will come off on their own once they become full, but most people do not like waiting for this to happen. By the way, when I have discussed this topic with Elfhild, for some reason she seems to be very reluctant to talk about it. Smile smiley face

Hmmm... perhaps she still has memories of that scene in Second Darkness when a quack physician wanted to use leeches to bleed Eowyn and Pippin to heal them of the Black Shadow. Smile smiley face

Angmar

***

"It is nice to learn that the Riders of Rohan have not perished. Eomer is still around, but not Theoden, Merry or Eowyn. That leaves the readers wondering what has actually happened at Pelennor. Was it as in SD? But, as the Circles stand on their own, I think it would be nice to learn about the battle from one of the survivors. Has no one seen Angmar-Eowyn fight? If they did, they should be haunted by memories."

None of the men from Grenefeld would have directly seen the confrontation between Eowyn and Angmar. They were peasants, not king's knights. Few actually saw the confrontation - "The knights of his house lay slain about him, or else mastered by the madness of their steeds were borne far away. Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young..." Of course, in an alternative universe in which Eowyn does not get to tell her tale for she is captured and Merry is killed, we never discounted men who were wounded and lived long enough to see what happened and then tell someone about it. Or someone who was not wounded or slain at all, but merely in a swoon and woke up at an opportune time. Someone had to know about Eowyn being taken captive and Merry's death. The scribes need to know these things some way, or else they cannot write about them. (Of course no Elf was present at the Music of the Ainur and still somehow the Elvish loremasters were able to tell exactly what happened.... hmmmm.... Smile smiley face

)

I did imply what befell Eowyn and Merry at Pelennor in Chapter 4, but I was vague and poetic...

"Then the Dark King descended from the heavens and Théoden King was slain, crushed beneath his great white horse, and both king and steed lay beneath the one who felled them. Sun gleamed upon golden hair and silver helm; blood was shed; a blade clattered to the ground and a small voice was silenced forever. The bonds of love and kinship soon gave way to shackles of iron and ever did the Shadow laugh and delight in the spoils of war."

Theoden falls just like in the book. Eowyn and Merry confront the Witch-king (golden hair and silver helm). Then Merry gets killed (a blade clattered to the ground and a small voice was silenced forever) and Eowyn is taken captive (shackles of iron and ever did the Shadow laugh and delight in the spoils of war...).

However, I did not want to write a detailed account of the battle, for there is a chapter already written about Pelennor, but it is far in the future. In the beginning Chapter 4 (which Chapter 18 picks up on) was meant to tie in with this other chapter later in the story. At first I was going to be very vague and mysterious about the war for the story was going to be told from Elfhild/Elffled's point of view. However, since then we decided that was not the best idea and that we should branch things out a little with multiple plotlines, much like what Tolkien did in Two Towers and Return of the King.

"Strange that Swithulf, the simple miller's son, seems to know about Rivendell and the Elves dwelling there (as compared with Eomer's, as well as Boromir's and Faramir's, ignorance of the place in LOtR)."

Well, though it was not stated, this is what had happened previously. Sometime before the end of the siege of Dol Amroth (May 23) when both the Gondor and Rohan armies were fighting as a combined force in the South, Aragorn sent messenger(s) to Rivendell asking for the assistance of the Elves. Though most of the people of Gondor and Rohan do not know the location of Rivendell, there are a few who do, such as Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond's two sons, Legolas, Gimli... Being simple peasants, the three men of Grenefeld probably never heard of Rivendell before and still do not know its exact location other than being somewhere in the vague "north," but perhaps Swithulf was present when Aragorn was speaking to the men, or had heard rumors from other people. Perhaps the army command wanted the men to know so it would hearten them; in this case, the information merely passed down the chain of command.

I have submitted changes for Chapter 18 that should better clarify this matter.

Elfhild

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:03 pm

Aganuzir,

I think we'll fly with it.

(Please don't kill me for that one Twisted Evil smiley face

)

Seriously, once Elfhild and I figure out how to incorporate the insignia, we are going to take advantage of this gem. If nothing else, the "Corps" will become better known. I doubt very few have ever heard of the "Corps"; they will soon.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:49 pm

Aganuzir,

>And the "hunger" chapter. It is much more realistic than what we
>encounter in Tolkien. Indeed, an empty stomach helps to change
>one's views, if not one's loyalties. Tolkien's writings are either an
>epic or a chronicle. Such details are lost there.

Hunger is a persuader as much as are swords and spears. It can cause an average person to do things he never would have done before. Hunger can force him to eat insects, rats and even in extreme cases, his fellow man. An empty stomach is a cruel master. Starvation, however, is not a factor for the captives, but mere boredom with the monotonous, meager fare.

>I can't say that it was off-putting, but puzzling, surely. Yes, the
>Prologue is beautiful and surreal and mysterious. Perhaps too
>mysterious. I tried hard to understand who was Lady Pharazani, but
>I failed. A Ruling Queen of Numenor? that means Tar-Telperien? -
>hardly. Names don't fit even if one is Quenia and the other Adunaic.
>Why then was she discussing war and politics? Why was her great
>granddaughter called "a princess"? I sincerely believe that some
>hints could be great, at least as a foot-note.

We fear that this woman and her family and friends will stay a mystery until the end of the story.

>Thank you for posting the link. It seems so strange, so inappropriate
>for nazgul with bright colors and insect appearance! Really curious
>picture.

The Mordor "Flying Corps Emblem," done in colors of black, white, red and green in the shape of some flying insect or strange bird "as seen from below." It is highly stylized, whatever it is. It appears to be some sort of heraldry device, such as used on standards or shields. I am as of yet undecided whether to include this emblem in the Circles or not, but it does have appeal. We borrow from all the works of Tolkien, not just LOTR, so this emblem could possibly appear at a later date.

Thank you for the good words. They mean a lot to us. Elfhild and I have always been considered "avant-garde" and while we proudly claim the title, we realize that many others do not like our work.

Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:10 am

Khazar,

Here are the directives:

"No spoiling of the captives. All slaves are to be preserved intact except for the usual wear and tear of this commodity by travel or disease. No officer or man is allowed to do aught else than restrain female slaves or their issue by use of threat and intimidation, and no serious bodily injuries may be inflicted upon those in your care. No slaves, either male or female, can be seduced or ravished, nor is it permitted to force them to service any officer or man by use of their mouths or hands. All offenders guilty of such offenses will face the most severe of punishments: castration and enforced servitude in the slave labor camps."

These Directives prohibit all forms of sexual activity with slaves, as well as mutilation and excessive punishment. They say nothing about fraternization or sharing of food; that is allowable. "You can look but not touch." Captain Kourosh sent eleven trusted men, not hot-blooded sorts like Daungha, to guard the prisoners. The Easterlings are not all over-sexed perverts and most can certainly control themselves.

Captain Kourosh is a stickler for rules, almost to the point of obsession. Other men might not be so strict and would look the other way at their friends' indiscretions. It all depends upon individual character and dedication. There would be many incidents that would never be reported.

These slaves are the property of Mordor, but do not yet have human supervisors (masters). From most ancient times, it has been illegal and punishable often by fines, disfigurement or death to tamper with another's slave.

"If any one take a male or female slave of the court, or a male or female slave of a freed man, outside the city gates, he shall be put to death." - Code of Hammurabi, 15
"If he put out the eye of a man's slave, or break the bone of a man's slave, he shall pay one-half of its value." - Code of Hammurabi, 199

Captain Kourosh was concerned that Daugha's actions would set a bad example for the orcs, whom he viewed with pity but still considered as some form of simian. In the Dark Lands, there is inner politics, which will play a greater part later in the story. Some of the men of the East have very racist views about the orcs. So do the men of the West. This does not necessarily mean that all orcs are wild savages that will not obey orders, but many can be unruly at times, or downright rebellious. Men are always considered better than orcs. They are very different, and differences always make for separations. It is an ego trip to consider a group of others as "lesser" or "subhuman." The men look down on and dislike the orcs and the orcs feel the same way towards the men.

Yes, things may often seem confusing. However, since we have 80 chapters already written (and that does not even put a dent in the story we have planned!), it is much clearer to us. Smile smiley face

We apologize for any confusion but we promise that all will be made clear in time.

Elfhild and Angmar

The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow · Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:57 am

Khazar,

You are doing fine, but sometimes I worry about myself. Crazy smiley face

After spending 16 months reading the rambling monologues of players' favorite characters, I am surprised I can remember anything anymore. Smile smiley face

Pithy comments. Smile smiley face

Perhaps you have not endured the endless pithiness that I have. There was a hobbit filled with bubbling cheer, an elf who had some kind of fetish with eagles, a guy who wanted to kill off all the canon characters that he could in senseless, meaningless deaths, a psychopathic Gandalf (played by aforesaid person) who murdered Saruman for some unknown reason. There were positives in all this random nonsense though. The elves, hobbits, eagles and all the other clutter are long gone, but what remains are the two outstanding co-writers of mine.

This strange, bizarre mixture is in the background somewhere of The Circles, but hopefully, there will be no taint of episodic, rambling illogical happenings or persons.

>"Circles" has none of that. It is not possible to tell from your writing
>that this was ever intended to be anything other than a novel
>length story.

The process of reorientation, however, is difficult. I cannot totally rid my mind of visions of 16 months of weekend live action roleplays and reading things like "There is always hope" and "May Elbereth save us!"

Thank you, Khazar. Good words are pleasant to those who are just coming out of being shellshocked. Magician smiley face

Angmar

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