[inglor]

This occured to me after a few threads have brought up the topic:

Side note before I get onto the topic...
Speaking for myself, but I think this might be true for other men, I find women that can protect themselves like that intensely exciting. A friend of mine had a sword and his girlfriend pulled it out and held it like she knew what she was doing, we oohed and ahhed for months...

On to the Topic:
Here's another goodn' for ya Tolkienofiles:

Did the Prof ever specifically state that female elves took up the sword?

IIRC, the Prof said Artanis was among the best atheletes in Valinor so male-female parity was stated elsewhere too.

Let's just say he said they did... I wonder how they felt when they married and had to put it down after baring children. If I interpret things correctly, some of the mother's strength went into the child and they were weakend, making them physically less powerful than the males.

Here's a potential plot bunny: I wonder if there was a class of female elf warriors, like the Amazons but without the breast removal (If what little knowledge about them is right) .

Maybe someone should dump that on Tyellas sounds right up her alley.


Inglor

[Aerin]

imho, I think that any female would feel the dissapointment of loosing one's form for fighting.

Elven females would probably be more "practical" in dealing with the dissapointment; believing that their strength went into their child and therefore apart of her would still be strong and have that fire that she once carried for herself.
That would fit in with the obvious "Noblility" of the Elven race.

[Andreth]

As much as it pains me to say it, I don't think that female Elves (or Edain or Dwarves) fought in wars, as a rule.

The quote from LACE is often used as a basis for argument and it does say "In all things not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and the nissi are equal..." but later in the paragraph it states "And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the nissi fought valiantly and there was less difference in strength and speed between Elven-men and Elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

For the Dwarves: (WotJ pg 205) "For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or ingait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls."

For Mortals: (PoMe pg 309) 'They [the Folk of Haleth] did not willingly adopt new things or customs and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. .... One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. Tihs custom was evidently ancient** for their chieftainess Halth had been a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women.

**Not due to their special situation in Beleriand, and maybe rather a cause of their small number rather than its result. They increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed."

Other Races of Edain: (The Silm pg 155) "At last so desperate was the case of Barahir that Emeldir the Manhearted (whose mind was rather to fight beside her son and husband than to flee) gathered together all the women and children that were left, and gave arms to those that would bear them; and she led them into the mountains that lay behind, and so by perilous paths, until they came at last with loss and misery to Brethil."

So it's very obvious that women in Middle-earth did fight, but only when they absolutely had to or there was no other choice. I don't think they outfitted up with the guys and went into planned battles as part of the regular army ranks.

And from that quote about Haleth's people, Tolkien is associating the war-like nature of those women with the lack of growth of their people. To me it almost sounds like some kind of moral as to why women shouldn't be that way. Which I can't say I agree with.

Now if it were a world of *my* creation the women would be out there whipping ass right alongside the guys, but in Middle-earth women fighters seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Anna

[Andreth]

[sindohte]

[inglor]

Maybe a group that was the house guard, on a rotation, like the Swiss or Israelis, EVERYBODY has to learn to fight and use a weapon. I wonder how the Elves would deal with fraternization

I think I like Finrod/Turgon/Thingol/etc. having a Praetorian Guard of ellith

Probably stretched too far on that one but the plot bunnies are getting Frisky. Though I wouldn't put it past the Avari or Nandor

Seriously though, When Idril fought with Maeglin, was there any reference to a weapon, I seem to remember her wounding him. I would look it up but I don't have the Sil or UT handy.

Inglor

[Thuriniel]

[Aerin]

What about one who lives in Mirkwood and the situation is in the time of the war of the ring, and there are orcs everywhere etc?

[Andreth]

My post above isn't to say that people shouldn't write women warriors in ME, it's just to answer the question as to what Tolkien said about it. I say if you have a plot bunny about a story then go for it. For me, it's not so much whether a story is outside the potential bounds of Middle-earth as it is the author's attitude about it.

If you've got an author who says, 'I've never read the books, I don't know anything about Tolkien's world other than some names and places, but this is my story and I'm going to write it how I want and if you don't like it then up yours with a two foot spike-studded pole. Just shut up and don't read my story' then that turns me off immediately. Or authors who take something that obviously isn't a workable possibility in Tolkien's world and then purport it as fact. But if an author says, 'I know this isn't exactly what Tolkien wrote, but it was an idea that interested me and I wanted to write it', then I'm all for that and if the story interests me I will happily read it whether it's 'canon' or not.

Okay, I'm digressing off on a tangent here. If you want to write about a female guard of women, go for it. What I think would be really interesting would be instead of a story where the women warriors are written as an acceptable fact of life in ME, the story would be about women warriors who weren't the norm and what problems they faced because of it. Like Haleth's warrior women - they obviously weren't the norm and the Elves and the other Edain thought that was just bizarre and strange. What would they have felt like in that situation? What would it have been like if they actually had gone to war and had to face a 'women aren't supposed to be here' attitude. Now *that* would be a story I'd like to see.

[inglor]

Oh now that's entirely too serious, I was thinking of a way to explain Gildor's surname... LACE what LACE... I think Amarie is going to get upset with me...

Just what I needed, more plot bunnies


Ing lor

[Rous]

You could check out Havetoist's story. "The Griffin and the Phoenix" is an A/U, but deals with a warrior race. The second part, "The Phoenix's Griffin", deals with how other Elves viewed them.

[Aerin]

I want that bunny the icon not the story....well kinda the one I was talking about...not Inglors plot bunny

[Thuriniel]

[inglor]

[Thuriniel]