[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Of the Sindar will officially begin on Monday 8/2.

Anna will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Anna]

Hookay...

This chapter tells us, of course, of the Sindar.
More specfically who the Sindar was, who their King and Queen was (Elu Thingol and Melian), how they befriended the dwarves, how it came to pass that the Nandor (remember them?) made a living for themselves in Thingol´s realm and, finally, what Melkor did and what effect his actions had on the Sindar, among others.

The chapter begins with a short presentation of who Elu Thingol (=King Greymantle aka Elwë) and Melian (a Maia) was. Lúthien, their daughter, is also mentioned briefly.

We are told about the Dwarves travelling into Beleriand (the kingdom of Thingol and Melian) during the second age of the captivity of Melkor. They befriended the Elves, learning from them and, in turn, teaching them a few things. The Dwarves got along with the Noldor better than the other Elves b/c of their mutual respect for Aulë.

The Dwarves built the palace of Thingol and Melian (Menegroth) and filled the armouries with axes, helms, chain-mails, spears and the likes.

As was told in 'Of the coming of the Elves' the Nandor with Lenwë as their leader chose not to cross the Misty Mountains on the journey from Cuiviénen. In 'Of the Sindar' they show up again, seeking the protection in Beleriand against fell beasts.

Now, Melkor´s (or rather Morgoth!) orcs multiplies, wrecking havoc pretty much all over the place. This eventually leads up to the Wars of Beleriand, which was fought between Elves and Dwarves on one side and Orcs and the likes on the other. The Elves won, but lost many.

All this, plus the closeness to Angband makes Melian weave a protection around the dominion -- The Girdle of Melian, to keep strangers and enemies out.

Meanwhile, Morgoth is having a ball outside the protected area.

The chapter ends with, oh yes...Fëanor burning the white ships of the Teleri.

[sindohte]

What struck me about this chapter was the contrasting styles of leadership between Thingol and Feanor. In some ways this was a "boring" chapter because it was not filled with the crazy and drama of the Feanorian opera. Certainly there were the ongoing conflicts involving Melkor's orcs and other nasty things, but Menegroth was at peace. I also enjoyed learning a snippet about the dwarves. In some ways it is a pity that they were such a secretive society because the glimpses that we do have of them are fascinating.

While Thingol might have been king, Melian was his closest advisor. Every good leader needs to surround themselves with people that they trust and can rely on for good advice. And I have to start whipping on Feanor again, because he didn't from how I read the earlier material did not have anyone that he considered an advisor. Certainly he had Fingolfin, his sons, and other Elves who tried to provide him with feedback and a reality check, but Feanor was dead set on following his own path. He had a "If you aren't with me, then you are against me mentality."

[BittenBuggy]

I see Thingol and Melian as kind of a 'Bill and Hillary' relationship. Thingol is just a figurehead, Melian has all the power

[sindohte]

BB -

Could you flesh out the reasons for your comment re: Melian and Thingol? Certainly Melian was a maia, which gave her otherworldly powers that Thingol could never possess. At the same time, he was the leader of his people before he met Melian. So imho it is a disservice to envision Melian as some type of puppetmaster pulling her husband's strings or for Thingol to be such a dumbass that he wouldn't know how to wipe his butt without his wife.

And this prompts me to raise another question - why is it when that when a wife is as equally or more powerful than her husband, people automatically assume that she is some ballbusting beyotch who has her husband's balls in a vise? I think that is part of the problem with a large number of stories portraying Galadriel and Celeborn. The Lady of Lorien was definitely one scary customer, but that doesn't mean that Celeborn was a wuss. Yet I think that fact gets overshadowed much of the time.

And would people have had the same attitude about Thingol/Melian or Celeborn/Galadriel, if the male in the couple had more power than the female? My guess is no. People expect men to have more power than women. So when a woman comes close to matching or exceeding a man's power, she has to be put "in her place" because she is stepping outside of the limitations placed upon women by society.

[BittenBuggy]

Flesh out? You mean write more? Ugh...

While I agree that Thingol was indeed a leader of his people before Melian, he would never have lasted as a leader - and his people wouldn't have, without Melian.

I'm not going into the whole male/female roles in society - I am about as anti-'feminist' as you can get

That fleshy enough?

[inglor]

Guess what... I disagree BB. Atleast about the Sindar surviving. The Green elves did it without a leader at all. I think the Sindar would have become intensely war like had there been no Girdle. Like the Spartans in ancient Greece, all their efforts would have been to protecting thier borders. Look at Thranduil later, he had Dol Guldur in his back yard. Doriath would not have beeen nearly as large but the Sindar would have pulled back and Menegroth would have been an island stronghold.
I saw Thingol/Melian as more of a team, Thingol as the offense and Melian as de-fence. ( Sorry that was terrible but I couldn't resist)

Inglor

[BittenBuggy]

[inglor]

Way!

[Thuriniel]

It seems to me that Elu Thingol was an established leader of his people by the time he met Melian, and he must've been well loved as well since so many of his people stayed behind and forsook going to Valinor only for the sake of finding him.

As I see it Thingol and Melian's relationship is a well balanced one. Melian is powerful, and she provides Thingol with an edge thanks to her foresight, but I believe that the real leader is Thingol.

I must agree with Sindohte, after all the "Feanorian opera" of the previous chapter this one seemed a bit subdued, but I found it quite enjoyable. The descriptions of Neldoreth were just beautiful, and the coming of the Dwarves was surprisingly interesting (mentions of Moria), as well as the referrences to the origins of the Green-Elves.

[Andreth]

I must be more sappy than you guys, because I liked this chapter a lot better than the one before it. It finally gives us a look at what's been going on back in Middle-earth while Days of the Valar was going on in Valinor. I'm with Thuriniel - I liked the parts about the Dwarves. They're such a mystery race that it's very interesting to get a glimpse at their goings-on. The name Gonnhirrim sounds a little too much like gonorrhea to me, though.

Something I'd never paid much attention to before was the part about the Dwarves staying away from the sea because they feared it. Anybody know anything about the reasons for that?

Now we hear about the evils that begin to plague Beleriand from the north. Though it's not mentioned in the published Silm, in Morgoth's Ring it says that Sauron had escaped capture when the Valar fought Melkor. He stayed in the ruins of Utumno, rebuilding it and breeding Orcs and other nasties. This supposedly explained how Melkor rebuilt so quickly, even though his power had been sapped by the deal with Ungoliant.

Thingol is one of those characters whom I feel is usually unfairly maligned - people tend to see him as either a power-hungry jewel thief or an overprotective father with an anger control problem. I'll get into more of that later whenever we get to those chapters, but I've always seen Thingol as a powerful and effective leader. No doubt having Melian around made him stronger - "Great power Melian lent to Thingol, who was himself great among the Eldar, for he alone of all the Sindar had seen with his own eyes the Trees in the day of their flowering...he was not accounted among the Moriquendi, but with the Elves of the Light, mighty upon Middle-earth." and "In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the Maiar".

Melian saved a lot of Elves' lives in Doriath with her protective barriers, but I've no doubt that Thingol would have successfully led the Sindar alone. Melian didn't always share her foresight with Thingol and even when she did, he didn't always listen to her, so they had their problems, but they were definitely the Power Couple of Beleriand. Then we end the chapter with the Elves defending themselves behind the Girdle of Melian and the walls of Cirdan's harbor in Falas, and Feanor enters stage right onto the scene. The Noldor definitely had a lot of cleaning up to do if Morgoth's nasties were roaming all over Beleriand except for these two places.

[Andreth]

Oh and Sindohte, I agree with you on the male/female power perceptions. When there's a powerful female in the couple the perception is usually either that she's a ball-buster or the guy's just pussy whipped. A powerful woman is a threatening thing in most societies. Sad, really.

[inglor]

I am going to avoid any feminist conversation except to say that a woman's place is in the home, barefoot and pregnant, or enticing her man to get her pregnant. Cooking, cleaning, raising children, performing oral sex, basically being her lord's slave and pet.

I was rererereading this chapter the other night and something occured to me. After Thingol deals with the orcses in East Bel, he retreats and "walls" up Doriath. Leaving Cirdan to twist I assume that Thingol's army was too spent but the Prof doesn't say anything, just that Thingol left him out to dry.
If I had been Cirdan, I'd have been pretty chapped. Cirdan is always getting the short end of the stick. He sends help in EVERY SINGLE battle yet no one ever gives him any help. He is THE ONLY Elf Lord who always sent help, always.

Inglor
(you do realize my opening comment is a joke...)

[Thuriniel]

[Thuriniel]