[inglor]

I don't know if this has been discussed here before but:
Are these folks Human or Elves? I wonder this b/c there seems to be no rhyme or reason to who they are counted with:

Dior(Elf mother Human father) supposedly counted among Men

Elwing: (see above father/ elf mother) Counted among Elves

Earendil (Human father/ Elf mother) Counted among Humans

Does anyone know why Elwing is counted among Elves if Dior is counted among Men?

Inglor

[Viv]

Why is Dior counted among men? Since his nickname was "Thingol's Heir," I always figured he was counted among elves. Of course he had an early and grisly death, so I guess he never had to really decide...

Did Tolkien say he was counted among Men?

Can you tell that I have no idea? But it's something I've often wondered about, too.

[Elennare]

The answer that immediately springs to mind is that Elwing is classed among Elves because she is 3/4 Elven (even if people look on her father as "human"). Is there a "threshold" above 50% ancestry that qualifies a person to count as "elf"?
It is interesting to note that although Elrond (and hence his brother Elros as well) is referred to as half-elven, the family trees in the Silmarillion would indicate that he is 5/8th Elven in descent (if you class a Maia as being technically Elven), and would therefore fall into the same "more elf than man" category.


Another possibility is that it depends on how the character was raised, which would skew which kindred the character felt an affinity for and behaved like.

[inglor]

Here's a twist: Dior was only 29 when he married, and was King of Doriath at age 32... Killed a Feanorian in combat, possibly more than one at age 36. If Elves reached thier majority at age 50 then he was barely a teenager by Elven standards...

Inglor

[Viv]

Ooooh... Nimloth was a pervy gal, wasn't she?

Maybe he had human, er, physiology?

I always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that no one had to make a choice until Earandil pulled his little sailing-westward stunt, and that sort of ruined it for future mixed-blood offspring. Didn't Earendil assume that his heritage granted him the best of both worlds?

[Aerin]

you all make my brain hurt. You are too smart! Or you have too much time! either way, I am in awe of you.

[inglor]

Speaking of Pervy, according to the folks at Annals of Arda, Elwing and Elured Elurin were born in the same year,
On the Pervy side: I guess Elves heal much faster after childbirth...
On the Oh boy another paradox side: Elven gestation was supposed to last 1 year...

Inglor

[Thuriniel]

[Thuriniel]

[miriel361]

From the anthropological point of view, most male dominated societies have rated the off-spring according to the father. i.e. the woman is but the vessel for the male sperm.

Unless of course, the mother was a slave, in which case the children assumed the status of the mother. ( to do otherwise would mix up the whole question of inheritance)

In maternal societies, teh child took the status of the mother anyway.

Tolkien was Catholic and catholics have always had thing about legitimate children taking the status of the father.

Does this help? Probably not but I accept the fact that I tend to answer off topic.

[Amlee]

My knowledge of the Silmarillion is very little but one thing that did stick in my head was how the Elves seemed to be shocked when Elrond and Elros were told to decide between the two races. I was under the impression that this was the first time this happened.

But this does leave me with a question. Did any of the other half-elves live to make it to undying lands? The only two that I can remember to make it was the parents of Elrond and Elros. So that would make me think that the question had never been brought up before.

[Elvenesse]

I don't know if this helps, but anyway:

(1/2 Maia 1/2 Elf) Lúthien Tinúviel = Beren Erchamion (Mortal)

(1/4 Maia 1/4 Elf 1/2 Mortal) Dior = Nimloth (Elf)

(1/8 Maia 1/4 Mortal 5/8 Elf) Eluréd + Elurín + Elwing = Eärendil (1/2 Elf 1/2 Mortal)

(1/16 Maia 6/16 Mortal 9/16 Elf) Elros + Elrond = Celebrían (Elf)

(1/32 Maia 6/32 Mortal 25/32 Elf) Elladan + Elrohir + Arwen = Aragorn (Mortal - 'cause even if I knew how many generations between him & Elros, it'd take too long to work out)

(1/64 Maia 38/64 Mortal 25/64 Elf) Eldarion + sisters - Of course, that's only if Arwen genetically remains what she was before.

Let me know if there are any mistakes, as it's past midnight. I'm sure this is somewhere else on the web - and better formatted.

This might be wrong, because Lúthien was in a mortal body when she had Dior and so he might be fully mortal.

[Andreth]

Okay, I have to answer one last question.

Nobody knows for sure if Dior was counted as a Mortal or as an Elf. He was definitely Half-elven, or among the Children of Luthien, as they're called. If you look at it from Elros's choice, then Dior would be Mortal, what with Beren being Mortal and Luthien choosing the Gift of Men. (Her body didn't change, btw. According to Tolkien's re-embodiment rules she would have been placed in the exact same body she had before. The only thing that changed was that her spirit wasn't bound to Arda anymore.)

But I don't think it was that simple to compare Dior's choice to Elros's. In several different places, including the Silm, Peoples of Middle-earth, or Book of Lost Tales, Dior is referred to as Half-elven or Elf. He's named Dior Eluchil, Thingol's Heir. I've never seen him referred to as Mortal. When Beren came back from the Halls of Mandos, Tolkien says that he never spoke to Mortal men again. So that would kind of kill the idea of Dior being Mortal, in my opinion. But there's more to it than that.

In Letters Tolkien says that when Earendil and Elwing wed 'the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.'

I've always had the idea that before Elrond and Elros the Half-elven got to choose which race they wanted to be counted among, but when Elrond and Elros were born then the situation was presented with all the lines being tied up nice and neat in these two, so Eru says let's wrap this up once and for all. Elros chooses mortal and so all his kids become mortal after him, too. Elrond chooses Elf and that means that his kids get a choice, too. But their choice has conditions. They stay in Middle-earth if they want to become Mortal and so their children will be in Middle-earth where the Mortals belong. If they want to keep the life of the Eldar, then they have to travel to Valinor with Elrond and so whatever children they have can't leave Aman anyway and the choice of Mortal would be null and void. Problem solved.

Unless of course, one of the children in Aman chooses to be Mortal and then marries an Elf in Valinor. Then the process starts all over again. But the Valar would probably see this coming and say 'oh, hellll no...'

That's the best I've ever been able to come up with. Maybe if we had a clue of what happened with Imrazor and Mithrellas's children, it would shed some light on the matter. If their son was given a choice, he obviously chose mortality since Imrahil and the other Lords of Dol Amroth were mortal.

[Amlee]

[Haleth]

Tolkien gives an explanation for Earendil and Elwing. It is found in volume 5 of the History of Middle Earth, the Lost Road (and probably in the Peoples of Middle Earth, but my copy has mysteriously disappeared.)

Earendil and his three companions sailed to Valinor with the intent of begging the Valar to help the people of Beleriand. Elwing, who had been transformed into a bird so that she could take the Silmaril and escape the assault upon the havens at the mouth of the Sirion, joined them mid-voyage.

Once they reached Aman, Earendil ordered his wife and companions to remain on the boat. This was to spare their lives for no one from Middle-earth could set foot in the Blessed Realm again without forfeiting his life. Valinor was forbidden to Men altogether and the Exiles were until the Ban.

He was half way to the beach when Elwing jumped in and followed him on to the shore.

Earendil delivered the message, begging the Powers for help. Once they had agreed to help, there remained the little problem of his breaking the law. Mandos declared that, as Earendil had human blood, his life should be forfeit. As the descendent of the Exiles, his life should still be forfeit. Ulmo argued that, as Earendil had been born for the purpose of delivering this message, it was hardly fair to kill him.

It was Manwe's judgment that, in light of their courage, the Ban would be lifted for both Earendil and Elwing. His exact decree was "to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged."

Earendil left the choice to Elwing. Elwing, 'because of Luthien', chose to be an Elf. Earendil chose as Elwing had for love of her, 'though his heart was with the kindred of Men.'

So that explains Earendil, Elwing, Elrond and Elros. It offers no explanation for Dior or for Elrond's children.