[SilverMoonLady]

[Eruanna]

[Eyborg]

[SecretKeeper]

[SecretKeeper]

Sorry....just different topic since we're steering from the topic in the subject. I suppose the Pros and Cons dealy wasn't a good suggestion

HOWEVER. We need to return to the topic at hand. WHAT DO WE BELIEVE IN?

Spiritualism comes in so close with politics. I've always wondered why it came so close with governing a country when I was little (eleven...) until I started watching documentaries and reading a lot. I've noticed that many of the laws we have today are based a lot from the Bible and other sources. Don't you think it's cool when you find something from a religion (Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, etc...) and some of their teachings intertwine? I mean "thou shall not kill" and "thou shall not steal" are two of the most used testaments...other than "thou shall not commit adultry" and "the golden rule"...the first two seem to have intertwined with other religions. However, they are also intertwined with politics.

I suppose the topic I'm trying to bring up is: what do you think about spiritualism and its role with politics?

Another topic and suggestion. I think that a lot of our governments are based on our beliefs and it is because of those changing values that our spiritual lives are transforming. Then again that's my opinion and if it doesn't make sense please call me on it.

[SilverMoonLady]

I think it is a dangerous mixture, politics and faith... at least as long as you have multiple faiths involved. There is nothing as frightening (at least to me) as someone with temporal power having a religious agenda... Unless its someone with a political agenda swaying others by using religious arguments!
Not that political persons should not have faith, far from it. Faith can guide and support a *person* throughout their life, and in all areas of their life, in the sense that faith affects the very core of who you are. However, lets not forget such atrocities as the Inquisition, where religious dogma and political power ended up in the hands of vicious and greedy men that had no problem putting thousands through torture and death for their purposes. And always in the name of God! So those who opposed them were 'opposing God's will' and were put upon the pyre with the other innocents... Methinks God shudders in Heaven to hear such things...
No... politics and religion are a frightening thing.
Our laws, in many countries, are indeed based upon some of the core rules set out in those texts like the Bible and the Koran, but please remember, while we all agree that "thou shalt not kill" is an essential rule to live by, these same documents called for all manner of atrocities which were appropriate for the times they reflect, but not the world of today, where we understand that females are not objects, and the color of one's skin has nothing to do with intelligence.

And I think I'll go find a bucket to cool off in.....

[Anni]

I apologise for coming in at the tail end of this conversation but I have only just come on the forums.

I wouldn't know what to call myself. I believe in nature and that there's a source of power in the universe that creates and moves on, but I don't believe that it hangs around to babysit.

So I guess I believe that the evidence of this power is all around us, in the earth, the plants, the living creatures, including ourselves. I suppose if I believe in anything at all, it's the power of the earth itself. I always feel grounded and more alive in the presence of nature. Man made places of worship, like churches, leave me quite cold.

Although I was christened in the Church of England, I found great difficulty in following established religions. As a serving soldier in active situations I've had experiences which have caused me to do a lot of rethinking on aspects like religion and politics, which to be quite honest are very uncomfortable bedfellows. I always feel that faith and politics should never be mentioned in the same sentence.

I always remember coming up against my first experience of faith and political agendas when I served in Northern Ireland as a soldier. It was a real eye opener and it was sometimes hard to remember, when you were faced with an irate woman doing something nasty on the windshield of your vehicle (I won't say what exactly, but it involved a tampon), that faith was involved in it somewhere. The line becomes blurred when hysteria, hate and anger take over.

Again in the Gulf it was easy for the Chaplain to say to the troops 'God is on our side', however, the message became strained a little when you realised that the Imam was giving the same little pep lecture to a lot of the Iraqi troops. Allah was on their side. The trouble is that God is on nobody's side. There is a Voltairte quote that goes God is not on the side of the big battalions, but is actually on the side of those with the best artillery. Personally I think that wars and politics are man made, nothing to do with God and it's no use looking for faith anywhere in the middle of a war because we were given free-will and this is what we've done with it. Of course, man has also done a lot of good things with his free will too.

Having said all that, many of the soldiers gained great comfort from the Chaplain's speeches. I wasn't one of them. Iraq was the place that I discovered that human beings may have souls. I won't go into the details of the event, but I saw something leave a man's eyes as he died. As a professional soldier I carried on and dealt with it, but as a human being I can still see those eyes and the realisation that this was a man and even though he was officially 'the enemy' he was also a husband, a father, a son or a brother and a human being just like me. Many people have assured me that it wasn't my fault, that it was him or me, but somehow this doesn't make his eyes go away. They are the last things I see before I sleep and the first things I see when I wake. It sometimes feels as though I dragged his soul back home with me, but it did not rouse or reaffirm any believe in God or spirituality for some reason.

I've talked to a few soldiers since who had the same experience and they felt the same. Call it what you like, but the light behind the eyes of a human being is unique and doesn't die, it leaves. Where it goes I can't tell you, but I came to believe that the body is just a vessel.

Now I am neither fish nor fowl. I don't really believe in God per se, but I do believe that we have a soul or at least a unique light that is 'us' as individuals.

After that rambling I return you to the discussion of politics and faith, which, in my world, never the twain shall meet!

[SilverMoonLady]

Anni, you have my utmost respect, both for having served and for having remained a human being despite what you have seen and done.

[SecretKeeper]

I agree whole heartedly

[Forest]

Just saw this thread today, so I apologise for being late in replying. I am an Evangelical Christian and I believe that there is one God, his Son Jesus Christ (who died on the cross for the sins of humanity and to bridge the gap betwen man and God) and also the Holy Spirit. I also believe there is a Heaven and a Hell and the only way to get to heaven in to accept Jesus' sacrifice by confessing your sins to Him and asking Him to come into your life and heart. (People who do this, are labelled generally as "born-again Christians" - me included).

As regards baptism: For me, baptism is a outward way of showing the world that you have accepted Christ. We also do not believe christening a baby is right as the baby should be given the right to make their own decision about the faith when they are older. We do however dedicate children (if the family wishes - obviously).

For more information (and better explained than I can do), go here:

http://www.medwaycommunitychurch.org/baptism.htm

May I just end by saying how much I admire you all for being so mature about this topic. All too often I've seen major arguments come off on the Net regarding this kind of discussion and I applaud you all for being so relaxed about it. Kudos to you all!

Hugs
~Forest

[Eyborg]

Glad to see another born again Christian here, Forest!

Have to take a look at your website later on when I have more time. Are you a Pentecostal or similar?
I myself am baptized by immersion, when I was 19.

[Forest]

*hugs back to Eyborg* Though I am a born again Christian, I have not yet been baptised. I am waiting for when I feel is the right time to publicly show my acceptance of Christ.

~Forest

[Yavanie]

Eyborg, Forest, just as a matter of sharing,

we (me and Rocheron) belong to the Episcopal church (came form different backgrounds - him catholic, me presbyterian) and had our children baptized and appointed godparents when they were babies. It is our promise to raise them in our faith and teach them what we believe. Then as teenagers they attend 'confirmation classes" where they are presented with the basic tennets of our religion and given the opportunity to have any questions aswered. Then they are given the opportunity to claim those promises for themselves. Most teens in this kind of program make a profession of faith at this time, however, some need more time or wish to explore more deeply the questions they have. Some will wait years (frequently when they get married and decide to have kids and start thinking about having them baptized, then they come back to church). Still others will never claim the faith of their parents. We feel it is our job to raise them to believe and teach them the reasons why we do and because of that they are sort of under our protection until such time that they can be accountable for themselves.

I think it's really just a matter of perspective.

Forest, I understand about making a public profession of faith. Once you do that you do sort of feel like you're living under a microscope. And maybe in the eyes of the world you are. I've said before christians are both the best and worst advertisements for this religion.

Great discussion. It's been very enlightening to see other people's perspectives. I feel like I have even more reasons to really like all the people on this forum now!!!

[Eyborg]

That is just so nice Yavanie! I do indeed respect and acknowledge the baptism of babies, if the parents are believers.
I myself haven't yet decided what I will do if I ever have children; I guess it will depend a lot on what their father will believe. But at least I will have them blessed/dedicated to God, and then as they get older, it's up to them to choose what faith they will follow.
Oh, I'm so glad to have a religion thread which is friendly and with no flames! If everybody in this world were so nice...
to you all!

[ghettoelleth]

Awww, Hi Borgie, where ya been?

This is nice, isn't it? Ya has such a lovely and giving way of approaching this subject. I've always respected her a great deal for this.

Shnogs to you too, Ya.