[Eyborg]

[VanatheEverYoung]

Well said, Eyborg.

I'll just add one thing. Elves are controlled by the fea (spirit) much more than hroa (body). Whereas it's the other way around with Men. So, Elves are much more controlled and calm because their spirit dominates what their bodies do. That's why they can die grief. Having said that, Legolas isn't going to pounce on Mary-Sue the second she flashes him her DDs. In the Appendices when Aragorn dies, he clearly chooses to do so. So, I'm guessing Numenoreans had some of that Elven control over their fea. Meaning, Aragorn is more controlled than most other Men.

[Alassante]

[NancyBrooke]

[SpaceWeavil]

[Yavanie]

Allasante,

just wanted to go on record here and say thanks to you for asking questions (I know there are a lot of lurkers out there wondering the same thing but haven't upped the guts to ask yet). I've learned a lot from what you've asked. That being said, we love all things Tolkien here, but he wasn't perfect either. We like to play in his sandbox but don't necessarily have to follow his blueprints. I agree Elves marrying early and then if they lose their spouse no fun until the end of time just doesn't work for me. That's why I'm here. There are plenty of examples of working around (or without) that cannon all over the place here. Cannon is a great starting point and your well versed readers will appreciate a simple authors note saying you have chosen to deviate from it. Those of us not so well immersed in the details of Tolkien will go right on and enjoy your writing as well. WE come here as much for our own ejoyment but not to follow some restrictive and artificial set of rules, just some general guidlines to keep the peace. Please don't stop writing or go back and edit all you've done. As you learn more incorporate what works for you and leave out what doesn't. You aren't gettting paid for this and if you aren't enjoying it then what's the point? (if course it's great when we get to enjoy your work too)!!

okay, my two cents.

[MoonRaven]

[JaneDoe]

The idea of sex as being separate from spirituality is completely contrary to the beliefs of many peoples currently and historically. The idea of sex as profane or merely physical is something I find particular to religious paradigms that view matter and spirit as antithetical, or at least with spirit as better than matter*. With all due respect to Tolkien, this is one area where his conservative Catholicism gets in the way. There are a lot of spiritual concepts that are best expressed in sexual terms, and there are a lot of ways to be spiritual that embraces sexuality. Rather than making them debased or profane, this inclusion opens up lots of new and intriguing possibilities.

(*An intersting note is that these cultures tend to carry a strain of misogyny and/or gynophobia.)

I for one do not think of sex as merely physical. Sensual, yes, but there is more to it than the physical movements (at least, if you're doing it right, and that's what you're looking for). Sex is merely physical in the same way that Michaelangelo's "David" is merely a naked man or that ballet is merely people bouncing around on a stage or that music is merely people making noise in a rhythmic way. So, as someone with this view of sexuality, the ascetic streak attributed to Elves (especially in the whole "get it over with quick" attitude I'm constantly finding referenced here and in other places) strikes me as awkward, even contradictory, as it would if they had no concept of music, poetry, art, or dance. As long as they share with us a need for self-expression and closeness, as well as the desire for a communion with the divine, the sexlessness of the Elves will always seem a little off and probably not very healthy to me.

As far as losing interest in sex when you get older, Tolkien wasn't around to witness the Viagra phenomenon. Not too long ago, older people simply had to live with not being able to rise to the occasion, so to speak. "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

It would be interesting to see fanfic that takes on Tolkien from another spiritual sensibility, particularly neo-paganism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Shinto. Their greater degree of spiritual integration (as displayed in their greater control over their bodies, their heightened aesthetic sense, and their ability to perceive the seen and unseen without being too phased by it) fits very snugly within these religious paradigms. The portrayal of Elvish society and customs as being aligned with Catholicism doesn't make a great deal of sense. I'm inclined to think that Tolkien did so because he was in a bit of a bind. Let's consider for a moment the options he had available. He has, for all practical purposes, created a race of ideal human beings. Their spiritual natures are more rooted in the world, so much so that the fate of their kind rests with it. Tolkien himself is a devout Catholic. Even if he were aware of non-Hellenistic, non-Judeo-Christian belief systems, would he consciously model the society and customs of these ideal human beings after societies and customs of heathens? It would be nothing less than blasphemy! After all, in a religion that is centered around redemption via faith, it is better to be a Christian sinner than a heathen saint. You can say that he loves the Elves too much to place them outside conventional norms.

[inglor]

My opinion on elvish sex drive is from a biological standpoint. Bare with me for a moment, this takes some explaining...Our sex drive (in my and others opinion) is an evolutionary trait. Our need to procreate the Species is at the root of what drives us to have sex. Sex feels good because it has to, if it didn't our species would not have survived. What is the basic reason to have sex? To feel the intense and unique pleasure of an orgasm. Before anyone jumps on me, try to imagine wanting to have sex if you recieved no more pleasure than going to the bathroom or eating a piece of toast. You have to do both of these but do you get excited about it, bend all your will to getting that piece of toast? But we don't NEED sex to survive, our species does but not us as individuals, therefore, evolution caused sex to be intensely pleasurable to overcome the hazards of the act. Think about it, when you are having sex, all other thoughts go away, the closer you get to orgasm, the more you forget about the surrounding world, how many times has your head ache, muscle fatigue, mental stresses return as soon as you had the orgasm. How many times have you collapsed, completely exausted like you had run a marathon after you had an orgasm. Can you think of anything else that would cause you to expend so much energy (and take some serious risks )... besides survival?

In the days before modern medicine, child mortality was high and therefore we had to have lots of sex to make lots of children just to stay ahead of the death rate. And the only way to have lots of sex is to have a strong sex drive. Back in our past, the ones who didn't have the DRIVE, didn't procreat and the ones that did, passed that trait down. Sex feels great and all, but the basic need is an instinct. My point to this is that Elves were immortal, their race had no overiding instinctual drive to procreate to ensure that the species survived. I know that Evolution and Tolkien don't quite mix but from a biological stand point, the Elves had no need for sex. I'm not saying that they had no sex drive, I'm just saying that it we can't automatically assign the same sex drive to Elves because our drive has it's roots in something that is instinctual and not pleasure.

I don't know if this was the reason for the Prof not having randy Elves (I rather like randy Elves), but it is just a way that I can justify it.

From a spiritual standpoint though, I agree with Janedoe. I think sex can be moving on a level that far exceeds the need to procreate and I don't think the Elves would take sex lightly or be promiscuous (sp?) for flippant reasons. This gets back to my other point, IMHO the Elves would have sex for spiritual reasons, not just to satisfy a physical need.

There are some theories around here that the LaCE were brought from Valinor where life and limb were not under constant threat. Where as the Sindar and Avari may have had different customs regarding sex because the threat of extinction lay just outside the light of the campfire.


Inglor

[Eyborg]

[Gypsum]

Unfortuntately my copy of LACE is on the other side of the country, but I recall that it is quite clear that Elves do not have sex before marriage that they only ever have sex with one person in their lives. Except for Finwe, but that whole situation was so weird and screwed-up that the Valar had to have a hearing about it and figure out loopholes in the laws. Their reasoning was that if Miriel never ever ever returned to incarnate form, then it was lawful for Finwe to marry and have children with Indis. Miriel didn't want to ever be incarnate again and Finwe wanted a wife who would do something more than lie there as if dead (not making necrophilia jokes here) and more children. So everyone was happy with the Valar's resolution, except for Feanor. He Feanor was damaged by the whole mess, and his bitterness towards the world was in part why he caused such grief for the Noldor.

But other Elves who were separated from their wives lived long and very single lives. For example, Finrod's wife was Amarie, a Vanya who stayed in Valinor, and he never took a wife again. Turgon's wife Elenwe died on the Helcaraxe, and neither the Silm nor HoME says he remarried. I think War of the Jewels says that Fingolfin's wif also stayed in Valinor, and he never remarried either. And given the laws of Tolkien's universe, I doubt they fooled around in Middle-earth. Like others have said, sex was not an overwhelming drive of the Eldar. Though Tolkien does not make anyone in Arda Catholic per se, I think he does ascribe Catholic virtues to it and figures his perfect beings -- the Elves -- would subscribe to those virtues. M-e is not as sex obsessed as our modern culture. But lest you think Tolkien was turning towards older, more medieval values, he wasn't doing that either. After all, many medieval texts like Chacuer's Canterbury Tales are filled with sex and lust and adultery.

As for Aragorn and others of his lineage.... Remember that the high Numenorean kings have some Elven blood. They are descended from Elros. Elros was the son of Earendil and Elwing. Earendil was the son of Tuor, a Man of the Edain, and Idril Celebrindal, the daughter of Turgon. Elwing was Dior's daughter, and Dior was the son of Beren and Luthien. So I think Men of this line would have some of the strength of fea that the Eldar have. You can trace Aragorn back to Elros, if you're bored and have a lot of time on your hands. Or you can check out this website: http://tolkien.cro.net/humans/elrostre.html, where someone has already done it.

Also, at the end of the First Age the Valar granted the Edain especially long lives as a reward for their valiant service during the wars of Beleriand.

[Elentari]

[SpaceWeavil]

[Elentari]

yep, that one. I often wondered if the valar regreted it and simply cut it off after the feanor mess, but I guess they, like the greek gods, could not turn back in their words. hmmm...
I see a bunny coming.

ps- I just HAVE to say it- your avatar is just hilarious.

[Havetoist]