[phoenixqueen]

Oh...interesting question you raise, Thuriniel. I didn't consider that part about the process after BB was nice enough to send me a copy of LACE. (Thanks btw, BB!!!)

Arwen is an elf, so assuming that her fea is joined to the baby the way that LACE describes, what about Aragorn? Obviously he's not an elf, so how would that work in their situation?

[Thuriniel]

[Rous]

Why would they not feel some of the discomforts of human childbearing? I can see morning sickness, as Elves can be poisoned and physically hurt. I think they would feel an arrow, so why not sickness? And with the extra weight, that would put a strain on their lower backs, surely. I do see however, that they would do something for the actual pain of childbirth. The other pains throughout would seem trivial, so buck up, but the actual birthing, that they would block. (I know I LOVED my epidural. I did not thank the doctor for not suggesting it with the other three).
I will be dealing with the subject soon, so I have thought about it alot. But it all boils down to this, read what you can, and then make the decision that makes the most sense. After all, it is fiction.

From Viv 'No morning sickness and no chance of miscarriage or death in childbirth if you're writing her as an elf.' Viv, can you give me where you get this? Not that I doubt you (I am too ignorant of all the whats and wherefores), I would just like to have it for my small reference library I am building (due to the fact that I cannot afford all of the materials it seems are required to write in this realm).
Rous[/quote]

[Havetoist]

Reading Morgoth's Ring, I could find NOTHING that said they don't. And since elves feel pain, I would think they would 'feel' giving birth...

I've been all over the place trying to find a CANON answer and CANONot.....but if I have overlooked something...please, correct me...give me a book, chapter and page number. I like to read these things for myself. Professor T was so bloody vague....

I beg those who are following my fic to bear with me when my OFC is hanging over the loo sick as a parrot.....

[Havetoist]

[Thuriniel]

[Havetoist]

"Laws and Customs of the Eldar" is chapter in Morgoth's Ring. I'm going to have reread it. Perhaps I misunderstood...

And yeah, you are misinterpreting me.

Unfortunately tone of voice doesn't translate in typing. I didn't realise I was being snarky. I was actually frustrated for information. Looking for the book titles and page numbers so I may read for myself.

[Thuriniel]

[Havetoist]

[Rous]

'No morning sickness and no chance of miscarriage or death in childbirth if you're writing her as an elf.'

Can ANYBODY tell me where this is? Maybe PM me with the passage? Or even here, since someone else may be interested. I really, really, really would like the info. *winces in disgust at the whining* And what effect would all of this have on one of the Maia? Are they considered more Elven? Too many issues, not enough story! LOL.

[Andreth]

I'm guessing the no morning sickness/no miscarriage idea would stem from the fact that the Elves don't suffer from illness or disease. I don't know that the idea would be applicable to Elven pregnancy though, and so far as I know the only place Tolkien referred to Elven pregnancy was in LACE.

As far as the Maiar, the only way they were similar to the Elves was that their spirits were also bound to Arda until the end. The only way they would be physically Elf-like was if they chose to inhabit an Elvish form. But if the Elves weren't susceptible to illness then the Maiar certainly wouldn't be, since their spirits were more powerful than that of the Elves. But there's a quote from Vinyar Tengwar that I'll cut and paste at the bottom of this post stating that once the Maiar are involved in activities that would make them bound to their Incarnate form that they had to stay in that body and were responsible for its upkeep, just like any other Incarnate.

According to LACE, pregnancy was a big draw on the spirit of the parents, especially the mother, so I could see the mother suffering from fatigue and maybe even sickness if the strength of her spirit was so sapped.

Sorry I didn't have anything more definitive for you.


"The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.

"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched."

[Rous]

So, if say, Gandalf or Saruman or one of the other Istari were to deviate from their duties, they would be bound by their physical bodies, and therefore could, if they wanted, create a child? That is intriguing.
Rous

[Andreth]

Yep. The way I read it is that the Maiar could conceive (or father) children, they just had to be willing to stay in whatever incarnate form they were in at the time. So any of the Istari could have fathered children whenever they wanted, they just had to be stuck in the crusty old guy form for the rest of their time in Arda.

Gandalf might have been stuck in it anyway. The essay says that even eating or drinking could bind a Maiar to their Incarnate form. I don't ever remember any instances of Gandalf actually eating or drinking (does anyone else?) but he sure did like his smoke. Oh! No, I do remember Gandalf eating and drinking in The Hobbit and supposedly he was very fond of red wine. I wonder how much a Maia would have to partake of to bind them permanently to a form?

[Rous]

*does the dance of joy* Then the idea I have will work, and I do not have to rewrite it. (I hate rewrites.) Thank you, very much.
Rous

[Rous]

On another note, this is for Andreth and those of her ilk. Did the Elves stop having children? If so, when? Who, supposedly is the last Elf born in ME? I do not have Morgoth's Ring, and I do not remember anything in the Sil, or the UT concerning this. (Of course, I could have missed it. Lots to digest.) If no Elves were born after, say, Arwen, then my whole storyline is wrong.
Rous