[Andreth]

Well, I haven't had lunch yet today, but I'm not in the mood for noses, so yours is safe for the moment.

Before I get off onto my other point, I just wanted to add something I forgot to make clear before I spouted off my opinions. I do believe that the Elves married once and were monogamous, and it's my personal opinion that they weren't as prone to desire as Men. But that's just because I think most of them have the advantage of age to gain a better control over that sort of thing. LACE isn't something that I completely ignore or dismiss, but I think it's as shot full of holes as anything else in HoMe so it gives people room to be creative without being crucified for it. Yet another 'to each his own' situation.

Power of the Book, if you could let me know where that passage is in MR about Elves not crying, I would very much appreciate it. Not because I think you're wrong about it, just because I've never seen it and would like to know where it is for future reference.

But as far as Tolkien's interpretation of Elvish nature, that also seems to vary from place to place. I write my Elves with many similarities to humans and I'd like to think that I've gleaned that from Tolkien's interpretation as well. The passages I find most interesting on this topic are from Letters of Tolkien.

Now I know a lot of people want to compare dates of when the letters were written to when the texts were written (which can't be done in this case because it's not known when LACE was written) but for me personally, I like Letters regardless of the date. It gives a window into Tolkien's actual personal thoughts on many matters and not what he was try to convey in his pseudo-historical documents.

For me, the interpretation of the passages below is that Elves and Men are, as the books say, the Children of Eru, and alike but also different in fates and thereby with differences in nature. I take those differences as being that Elves, being affected by a different fate, are also affected by different weaknesses. They have a greater appreciation of beauty and nature and are gifted with greater creative skills, but the price of that is their fading, the weight of their memories and longing for the past taking their toll. But I'll just list the passages I've found about it and let everyone make their own conclusions.

Andreth/Anna


Here's the quotes dealing with Elves being akin to Men: (warning, these are going to be long so bail now if you don't want to read it all)

Letter #144 (pg 176)
"They (Elves) are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men! But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say that they reprsent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility - the Elder Children, doomed to fade before the Followers (Men), and to live ultimately only by the thin line of their blood that was mingled with that of Men, among whom it was the only real claim to 'nobility'."

Letter #156 (pg 205)
" There is only one 'god': God, Eru Iluvatar. There are the first creations, angelic beings, of which those most concerned in the Cosmongony reside (of love and choice) inside the World, as Valar or gods, or govenors; and there are incarnate rational creatures, Elves and Men, of similar but different status and natures."

Letter #181 (pg 236)
"Of course, in fact exterior to my story, Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. In this mythological world the Elves and Men are in their incarnate forms kindred, but in the relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time represent different 'experiments', each of which has its own natural tread, and weakness. The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understant it for its own sake and as 'other' - sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves - not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence. They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally' but to endure with and within the created world, while it lasts."

Letter #153 (pg 189)
"Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring...."

"Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them...."

And lastly Letter #131 (pg 149)
" ...and a recurrent theme is the idea that in Men (as they now are) there is a strand of 'blood' and inheritance, derived from the Elves, and that the art and poetry of Men is largely dependent on it, or modified by it. * Of course, in reality this only means that my 'elves' are only a representation or an apprehension of a part of human nature, but that is not the legendary mode of talking."

[Panneth]

[PoweroftheBook]

Panneth, No!

Don't rewrite it! It's beautiful the way it is! And I think Tolkien even breaks the 'no Elvish tears' thing at times.

Andreth - the book I read was borrowed from the library, and it's going to take me some time to locate another version. Will tell you when I find it. Will respond to rest of your post later tonight, hopefully.

Regards,

The Power of the Book

[Panneth]

No, not the posted one, Chapter 10 which is at the moment sitting on my computer covering in comments from Thuriniel, but I'm considering re-writing most of it. It's driving me crazy!

Did you like Chapter 9, btw? (sorry turned into a review whore!)

[Andreth]

[Panneth]

I had forgetten about all of those reference. I guess I just got over-keen in my attempt to follow the *rules* as much as possible. And besides, if crying is good enough for the Valar, Nienna in particular, then it's good enough for Leggy and Eldirn (my OFC). The chapter is becoming traumatic enough without having to cut out the crying!

Is the file very big (more than a few hundred KB)? My hotmail inbox is very full at the mo. If it is, PM me and I'll give you an email that doesn't have a file limit. Thank you!

[Havetoist]

I think I actually lost consciousness during this string of posts...

Seriously, these little 'debates' are helpful (especially when you give us page numbers!!).

At the end of it all, aren't we all a little glad that the works we are playing around with ARE vague???

Except when you're writing something of course and are thrashing about for some 'historical' basis...

Keep it up ladies! You are all fab. Especially you Haleth!! You ROCK!!

[Rous]

I am not totally sure this is the place to ask this question, so if someone has a better place, let me know. I am curious about possible rites of passage for the Elves. I am dealing with it in my fic, but it is based on her non-Elven heritage. I know that there are very few (if any) cultures that do not celebrate a coming of age for their soon-to-be adults, so it set me to wondering about it. Admittedly, I do not have Morgoth's Ring (which I personally think is only one copy in existance, and I am not in possession of it) but I have read the Silm, and Undying Tales. I could not find anything there. Also, how does one procure a copy of the LACE and LAMCE? Are they in a book, or posted somewhere out there? I would be interested in reading these, as I am planning on dealing with such issues.
I really must add that although I am rather behind the last posting here, I have enjoyed reading the opinions expressed. Some reinforce what I have garnered from the books, while others have given me food for thought. I plan on reading more of the threads in this section, which I have avoided until now, due to lack of knowledge. These subjects can be quite intimidating to one so new to the actual literature, and not just coming off the movies. Thank you all for some great intellectual entertainment.

[sindohte]

Rous,

LACE is either in the War of the Jewels or Morgoth's Ring, but it is too dang early in the morning to figure out which one. As for getting your hands on a copy of LACE, I can email you a copy. Just send me a PM with your email address and I will send it to you as a Word document. The lovely and wonderous Anna/Andreth originally gave it to me and I am forever grateful.

[sindohte]

Laws and Customs of the Eldar aka LACE is in Morgoth's Ring.

[Andreth]

Rous, if you need any help feel free to PM me or send me an email. I can help you out with references from HoMe and various books. Just let me know. And don't let it intimidate you - there's a lot of info and it just takes a while to browse through it. But it's fun, too.

[Rous]