[DarkElfChilde]

Thousands of years for a mortal...eh, I don't think so either. I guess I'll just have to make it up...course the way I had it was that Bilbo died first since he was the oldest I imagine...then Gimli, and lastly, Frodo. Taking place in the 4th age is most definately when they died. So, maybe Legolas was messed up because of his friends' death for a long time, but also knowing that his friends would want him to live a happy life. I would think to say...900 or so after their deaths be good enough? I think that would put me close to the 5th age.

[KhazarKhum]

Bilbo at 111 was considered extceptionally old for a Hobbit. So a lifespan of 80-100 is feasable.

The mortals might last for a few hundred years in Aman, before growing weary. I don't know how long Gimli would last, but if Galadriel is there for him to drool over, he might stick around for a while.

Sauron--funny how Tolkien uses "impotence" for "damned", isn't it? The oldest varients of "impotent" mean "powerless" , which is a long way from "damned".

"Damned" (damnare, Latin) simply means to "curse".

[DarkElfChilde]

I can't think of anything right now, but is there anything else that I might of missed that would be good for me to take note of?

[Andreth]

I'm sorry, I was trying to save space by stopping the quote where I did, but considering the topic of discussion (procreation) it would have been less confusing for me to have included the whole thing.

In this case, Tolkien was using impotence to mean a reduction in power - ..."reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)."

In Letters somewhere Tolkien says that after the destruction of the Ring, Sauron was reduced to a spirit state who could still hang around and watch everything, but didn't have enough power to make any kind of physical effect on the world.

Dark Elf - the only thing that comes to mind for me is that if you have beings coming from Valinor back into the regular world, remember that after the destruction of Numenor Valinor was removed from the physical world. The only way to get to it was by Elven 'magic' or by somehow accidentally finding the 'Straight Road'. So you'd need to keep that in mind when describing how they got back to the regular world, if that's the way you're going to go in the story. Like them using a boat of Elven-make or something like that.

Anna

[DarkElfChilde]

Okay, will do (or atleast try).

I've read a little about the 'straight road' from one of those lord fo the rings info site, and was planning on using that soon in the chapter when some of the elves leave to help, but was wondering if they could go back okay? I've read that Glorfindel did when he was at the Undying Lands for a while (I was thinking of having Glorfindel coming in as a cameo to help Legolas when they arrive to Arda so I did some research on him...he's a serious one and whatnot right?)

Also, the Valar can grant them permission to return to ME

[Viv]

[KhazarKhum]

But he does have a body! Remeber? Gollum saw him & knew him from the 9 fingers.

[DarkElfChilde]

Isn't the red eye Sauron's symbol?

[Viv]

[KhazarKhum]

The Lidless Eye is his symbol, just like the swan is the symbol of the Prince of Dol Amroth.

[DarkElfChilde]

Just making sure.

[Andreth]

Sauron's form in the Third Age falls into the 'Who the Hell Knows' category. I know, big shocker there.

I have a few thoughts to expound on, so BB, you should run away now and go play with your bunny. Give Harvey a pat for me, too.

The red eye was a symbol for Sauron, yes. In the trilogy we've got the mixed group of Orcs who took Merry and Pippin, some wearing the White Hand of Saruman and some wearing the Red Eye of Mordor. It's the symbol that's on some copies of The Return of the King. (It's on my old paperback copy, anyway) Some people think the Red Eye was Sauron's actual form in the Third Age and others think it was a metaphorical representation of his constant watch over everything.

Personally, I think there might have actually been some physical form of a Red Eye, but don't think it was Sauron's actual form. In the Second Age when Sauron decided to resume his place as the Dark Lord he built a lot of it on what Morgoth had left. At first he preached atheism (although he wasn't a true atheist because he had personally known Eru) and proclaimed Morgoth to be the true God, defiled by the Valar who wanted the power and rule over Arda for themselves. In the Second Age Sauron said he was Morgoth's prophet, but by the Third Age Sauron claimed to be Morgoth himself, reborn. Sauron used a lot of things Morgoth left behind in order to further power for himself, and the concept of the Eye was more than likely one of them.

In Morgoth's Ring Morgoth's 'Eye' is mentioned, keeping vigilant watch over his servants: "So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be."

So, to me, it seems like the ever-watchful eye is another intimidation factor that Sauron learned from Morgoth to promote fear and obedience.

Tolkien only talks about Sauron's form in the Third Age in one place: Letters, #246 pg 332: "Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength and body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance."

And we know from the Silmarillion that after the downfall of Numenor and the destruction of his body there, that Sauron 'could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men'. I take this as meaning that Sauron could still take a humanoid form, he just couldn't mask the darkness of his spirit any more in order to make himself seem imposingly beautiful and royal to others. Although I did come up with this theory because I have to write a sex scene between Sauron and a female character that takes place and the end of the Third Age, so this was a purely selfish and sanity-preserving theory on my part. I couldn't bring myself to write about someone boinking a slimy or skeletally funky Sauron.

And Khazar brings up Gollum seeing him: Gollum mentioned the Black Hand with four fingers. In FotR, Isildur's account of the Last Alliance also talks about the Black Hand that burned like fire, and so ended Gil-galad. I think that wearing the Ring for so long took a physical toll on Sauron's form, one that he couldn't repair even when he took another form. I mean, he wore the Ring for a few thousand years so maybe having that much concentrated power on his finger for so long and actually wielding it caused damage. Sauron was an Ainur of fire, so his focused power would plausibly have been like Isildur described it, hot and fiery, and something that could permanently burn Sauron's hand black.

So them's my thoughts on the matter and as you can see, I've given it an unhealthy amount of thought. Does any of that make sense to anyone else?

[sindohte]

Wow *picks head up off the keyboard* that totally makes sense to me. Let me retreat to my little hidey hole for a bit and ponder the plot ideas that have just popped into my head.

Here is my thought/question - Is it possible that the "eye" of Sauron was actually a reference to some type of thought control that he had over his minions? And that the only way an Orc or whoever else was under Sauron's control could conceptualize the experience of being under his mental influence was to hallucinate a great big flaming eye of fire?

[DarkElfChilde]

I wan't really plaining on describing Sauron fair...maybe plain, but I don't really know hoe I will yet when Legolas meets him. Any thought on how I should?

[KhazarKhum]

Sindohte--Sauron had no psychic control/contact with the Nazgul. He may have used his imposing presence to awe the Orcs.