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Yavanie
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:26 am Post subject: |
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A Sindarin Translation shop??? ohh! Ohh!  need help!
My plot bunnies are of an entirely different nature. The priest at my church got wind of my previous life as an amatuer silver smith (hubby just had to wear that ring to men's breakfast to show him). Anyway, I have now been asked to design a silver charm inspired by our church logo that could then be marketed to the congregation. Our annual celebration is in August so I have a little while. I have not done much jewelry work since we had kids, almost 10 years ago and in some ways I am starting from scratch: need equipment and space and time (neighborhood has problem with working with open flames in the garage - no comments from the peanut gallery please). Anyway, the sketch pad is off and running and designs are whirling in my head ( I expect any writer can readily identify with this phenomenon). Anyhow, if this is going to fly, I've got to set up some small business type guidlines for tax purposes and such and so must have a name to register. I am surely not the first fan ever to want to name my business or craft in an elven language. Soooo, after that little monologue, on to the real question:
need translations, even suggestions for a name:
something like LadySmith or LadyCrafter or maybe incorporate an name of famous female elf, I believe Nerdanel was a metalsmith???
lady silversmith's workshop? you get the idea.
anyway, any help or suggestions would be hugely appreciated !!!!
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Yavanie
...I understand the sadness of the Elves, and I have seen Mordor.
To be older and wiser you must first be younger and stupider. |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Lady silversmith could be 'Celebdáneth'. Nerdanel was a smith, so you could use her name. Also 'Celebrían' I believe means 'silver lady', so you could use that as well.
Can't find any specific term for 'workshop', but you could maybe have something like 'Cargeleb', which would be 'House of Silver'
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't been able to come up with "workshop" either ... although I'm finding myself right now with very limited resources since my laptop is going through a window's reinstall  .
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SilverMoonLady
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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Location: Breaking in a Brandybuck... *wicked grin*
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Is this a good place for a random inquiry of terms to and from sindar, ladies?
I am... woefully ignorant, lets say:)
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 1804
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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That's a good question. Someone should gather all the info here and put it in a book. I've learned so much reading this thread. These ladies are amazing and have alot of really good reference sites and stuff. I have been using Hisweloke for ever and I'm such dork, I didn't even know I could have it in my word program til I read this thread. THAT THING ROCKS!
Thanx ladies,
Jes
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ghettoelleth
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Does anyone from the Sindarin guild know where I can find a quick reference to the evolution of the elvin tongues? Mostly what I'd like to understand is exactly which dialect the Telari spoke. I've never really paid attention to this subject and I'm confused. Is Sindarin similar to the common speech in that it was spoken among all elves with each culture of elves having their own language as well? By the third age, did most elves speak a common language? Did any of the older elves retain the ability to speak Quenya? When the Valar communicated with the Eldar, what language would they have used? Would communicating telepathically even require a language? I was just sailing along, everyone was speaking Sindarin and  it hit me.
Questions Questions Questions, suddenly I have a surplus of the them.
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MysticGirl1
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:01 am Post subject: |
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In the third age the elves speak a common Sindarin, but the elves of Mirkwood or Lorien has a different dialect to the elves of Rivendell.
I guess, the Telerie spoke a different Sindarin or Quenya than the other elves, because they were the last group who get to Valinor, but I'm not sure. I will search something for you, ok?
Yes, Sindarin is similar to Westron - it is a language, which all elves in Middle Earth understand. Only the dialect is different.
Most of the elder elves, who lives in Valinor or in the first age, could speak Quenya. Quenya was the common language, but after the depature from Valinor, the elves had to find a new language to speak with all the elves, which never were in Valinor. So Quenya wasn't most speak anymore and the gift to speak that language get lost for many elves.
If a Valar would speak to an Eldar, they would definitively speak Quenya. I guess, even an Eldar who can't speak Quenya, would understand the Valar without any problems.
Ok... I hope I could help you. Give me a bit time and I will search.
Mystic
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: | | Does anyone from the Sindarin guild know where I can find a quick reference to the evolution of the elvin tongues? |
I think you should find most answers to your questions in this site:
http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sindarin.htm
It's full of great information  !
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~ boe an phân pedi ‘lam dadui ~
~ everyone should speak a second language ~ |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| SilverMoonLady wrote: | Is this a good place for a random inquiry of terms to and from sindar, ladies?
I am... woefully ignorant, lets say:) |
I love answering Sindarin questions  ... I guess since the thread is "Need Help With Sindarin" you should be able to ask at your heart's desire ... or you can always use the PM feature.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| MysticGirl1 wrote: | In the third age the elves speak a common Sindarin, but the elves of Mirkwood or Lorien has a different dialect to the elves of Rivendell.
I guess, the Telerie spoke a different Sindarin or Quenya than the other elves, because they were the last group who get to Valinor, but I'm not sure. I will search something for you, ok?
Yes, Sindarin is similar to Westron - it is a language, which all elves in Middle Earth understand. Only the dialect is different.
Most of the elder elves, who lives in Valinor or in the first age, could speak Quenya. Quenya was the common language, but after the depature from Valinor, the elves had to find a new language to speak with all the elves, which never were in Valinor. So Quenya wasn't most speak anymore and the gift to speak that language get lost for many elves.
If a Valar would speak to an Eldar, they would definitively speak Quenya. I guess, even an Eldar who can't speak Quenya, would understand the Valar without any problems.
Ok... I hope I could help you. Give me a bit time and I will search.
Mystic |
If you go from 'Peoples of Middle Earth', it says that Cirdan's elves (who still called themselves Teleri, even into the Third Age) spoke their own dialect, different from Quenya and Sindarin. Sindarin in itself was developed from the original Telerin, so I assumed, when writing Telerin characters in 'Alliance', that they probably spoke the older version of the language. (It says they kept pretty much to themselves, so this is why I guessed that the old language would be preserved.)
I think I saw Thuriniel post the Ardalambion URL. If you go there there is a section on Telerin and it gives you the 'history' of the language. It also gives some of the more obscure languages like Valarin and Avarin. (I cannot say how much I love that site )
As for Mirkwood and Lorien, they did have their own dialect, Nandorin (which is also on Ardalambion), but since the ruling classes there were Sindarin, or at least of mixed Sindarin / Nandorin blood as Thranduil is supposed to be, then there would still be some spoken Sindarin there. The majority of the elves there though spoke their own dialect, and I am sure I read some reference somewhere that they didn't write it down either. They only wrote in Sindarin, if at all, but spoke in their own language.
I might be making that last bit up, but I remember something of that nature in one of the books. Ardalambion though, as Thuriniel says, will give you detailed info on all the languages.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| ghettoelleth wrote: | Does anyone from the Sindarin guild know where I can find a quick reference to the evolution of the elvin tongues? Mostly what I'd like to understand is exactly which dialect the Telari spoke. I've never really paid attention to this subject and I'm confused. Is Sindarin similar to the common speech in that it was spoken among all elves with each culture of elves having their own language as well? By the third age, did most elves speak a common language? Did any of the older elves retain the ability to speak Quenya? When the Valar communicated with the Eldar, what language would they have used? Would communicating telepathically even require a language? I was just sailing along, everyone was speaking Sindarin and it hit me.
Questions Questions Questions, suddenly I have a surplus of the them. |
For the Quenya thing (sorry to answer this in bits and pieces btw) then yes, some elves would still speak Quenya. Galadriel, for instance, learned it as a birth tongue, but would have had to speak Sindarin once she came to Doriath, as Quenya was outlawed by Thingol after the Kinslaying. As for the 'younger' elves than Galadriel, like Elrond for instance, I would imagine they would speak Quenya, but not for everyday life. I've seen it referred to as an 'elven Latin', used for formal occasions and official stuff, the same way as we use Latin here in legal terms, for example. That is the way I tend to look on it.
I'm not sure if it's use would be restricted to the ruling classes, however. Like, would Haldir speak Quenya, when he is only a marchwarden, for instance? Galadriel I think though is the only elf in ME in the Third Age that would have been brought up speaking it. Cirdan might also know it, but as I've said elsewhere, he would speak his own language, Telerin, with his own people. Sindarin, certainly, would be the most common language.
As for the Valar, they had their own language that was presumed to be related in a way to Quenya, but there's not a lot of information. Again taking Cirdan as an example, there was a story where he was about to sail off into the West and find Olwë, but received 'knowledge' from the Valar that it wasn't time yet, since he had to hang around and wait for Eärendil and teach him shipbuilding, so that his voyage could eventually take place. The impression I got from that passage was that the Valar used some sort of subtle, telepathic method of communicating.
They could also communicate through the Maia, I suppose, like Eonwë, the same way the angels are used in Christianity. In that case, would the Maia speak Quenya, or would they use the best language for the situation, so that they could be sure of being understood? I honestly don't know. I would think the Valar would be able to use whatever language suited, like if they spoke to a Teleri, they would use Telerin (or at least would seem to, if it was a telepathic thing, if you see what I mean).
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Yavanie
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Sindarin for horse: roch
for lover: (besides male and female terms of affection): seron
so, one who loves horses (like a man who works with horses) might be Rochseron? or does something else need to be done to make is refer to a particular person or make it masculine?
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Yavanie
...I understand the sadness of the Elves, and I have seen Mordor.
To be older and wiser you must first be younger and stupider. |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Yavanie wrote: | Sindarin for horse: roch
for lover: (besides male and female terms of affection): seron
so, one who loves horses (like a man who works with horses) might be Rochseron? or does something else need to be done to make is refer to a particular person or make it masculine? |
You'd have to mutate the first letter of seron to 'heron', so it would come out as maybe Rocheron?
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SilverMoonLady
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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Location: Breaking in a Brandybuck... *wicked grin*
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ok.. 
If one were to nickname someone 'red crow' or 'copper crow', the red being referrent to hair color rather than bloody association, how would one phrase that in Sindarin?
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Suffering an again off again connection with life...
The joy of motherhood: what a woman experiences when all the kids are in bed.
*local PHF union rep* *tart of the week*
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SilverMoonLady wrote: | Ok..
If one were to nickname someone 'red crow' or 'copper crow', the red being referrent to hair color rather than bloody association, how would one phrase that in Sindarin? |
Red Crow is 'Corch Garan' or Copper Crow would be 'Corch 'oer' or 'Corchoer'
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