[sindohte]

Khazar - That was what I assumed regarding Sauron and the Nazgul. Given the fact that they had accepted the Nine, the Nazgul were slaves to their own lust for power and glory. And besides that, if I understand Tolkien's Ósanwe-kenta article correctly, Sauron would not be able to delve into the minds of other beings in that manner. However, his ability to exert some type of awe inspiring influence as you suggested with Orcs, would be possible.

[DarkElfChilde]

-waits for an answer to her question-



- waves some money and cookies about-

[Andreth]

Sind - I'm of the opinion that Sauron used fear and intimidation when he could as opposed to brute force, simply because it was less energy expended and less force used. And it is said that he loved order and disliked wasted energy. Maybe he did conjure up the image in the minds of people he wished to intimidate, or maybe he sent that image out to them and they picked up on it. Frodo saw it in Galadriel's mirror and I think Pippin saw it in the Palantir - don't remember exactly without looking it up. Frodo saw a red eye atop the Tower of Cirith Ungol, even though Sauron wasn't actually there.

For him to project the image of the Red Eye when he focused his attention on something or someone would make sense.

And since you guys brought up the Nazgul, I wanted to share something I found in Letters a few months ago that I hadn't noticed before. This is in reference to what would have happened had the Nazgul reached Frodo in Mt. Doom when he still had the Ring on:

"The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight (the Witch-king had been reduced to impotence) might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devestating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur - for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. ...... But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the signifiance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-Dur, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came."

I thought that was interesting that he referred to the group of remaining Ringwraiths as a 'religious cult' and showed the extent of their servility, to both the Ring and to Sauron. As usual, just enough insight to make us have more questions.

Dark Elf Childe - I think you're pretty safe in whatever form you choose to represent Sauron with, just so long as it's not fair and beguiling, like the form he took in the Second Age. You could make him an imposing sorcerer, a skeletal husk, a normal-looking person - whatever works for your story, really.

[SpaceWeavil]

About the Nâzgûl and Frodo, that is really interesting. I started a thread ages ago about the Ringwraiths’ involvement in the Last Alliance and am working on that at the moment for a fic, but there was some question I believe about whether the Ringwraiths passed into shadow when Sauron fell or after the disaster in Gladden Fields – if I remember rightly the Tale of Years differed from other sources. I would have to look to be sure. But if the Ringwraiths would have treated Frodo that way, then is it likely that they would have acted like that towards Isildur as well, once he was in possession of the ring? Which might explain why one source had them disappearing later, after the ring was lost. (it also gives me a better way of getting rid of the pesky little critters in my story, but hey… )
Does that sound feasible or a load of rubbish?

[KhazarKhum]

The Nazgul involvement with the Last Alliance is a mystery; they are not mentioned anywhere.

Their fate after the war is even more comlicated. Tolkien says in one place that they "passed into shadow" and in another says that they simply "went east". East makes the most sense, as they do not seem to have been involved in the War, and they aren't exactly inconspicuous.

Also, when Ar-Pharazoan came to fight Sauron, they apparently refused. None of Sauron's lieutenants would stand against tge Numenoreans, so that he had to go and surrender to Ar -Pharazoan himself.

[Andreth]

[SpaceWeavil]

Thanks Anna I’m still undecided as to how I will use my ringwraiths, but that helps. So far all they’ve done is terrorise my supply trains to the siege, but I was intending playing around with them when I get to the big battle. Way I look on it, if it doesn’t say they were there or that they weren’t there, then I can do what I like Don’t know if that is maybe a cavalier attitude towards canon, but it works for me Anyway the Nâzgûl are just too cool not to use.

[DarkElfChilde]

I ran out of questions to ask the all mighty Anna...lol. No really, that's your new name, Anna because you helped me out a lot, as well as a few others; well everyone that came here did, but mainly you. Anyway, thanks Anna for the help, I appreciate it very much.

You're like, a good friend that I always wished to have that knows LotR and such. My other friends don't! -cries-

[Andreth]

You're very welcome, m'dear. I'm happy I could help. Give me a yell if you have any other questions.

[Jillian]

Well, I think that it would depend on the mortal, and their motivation for staying alive.

For example: Bilbo probably didn't last long once Sam arrived, he knew Frodo wouldn't need him to stay any longer. Sam and Frodo would have kept each other alive, and probably went together when they did, and they might have managed to live quite a while. Gimil, with his best Mate Legolas to live for, and Galadriel, might have managed an impressive life-span, and I think somehow something special happened to him, the only Dwarf to ever live in Valinor when he did die.

Normal mortals: I'm writing a couple of AU stories where the odd mortal will be given the chance to live in Valinor in return for doing very special things, and in at least one case the mortal will have an elven spouse. This would give the mortal good motivation to stay alive.

Now, does anyone but me wonder what happened to Isildur's Granddad and his companions when they went looking for Valinor? Did they make it? Are they lost somewhere? Did they die immediately, or were they punished, or maybe listened to by the Valar?

Once again, Anna, you've given me far too much to think about.l

[Andreth]

I'm sorry, Jillian - I have the same problem myself after reading around in HoMe. So many ideas and not enough time to write them.

I agree with you. I don't think Bilbo lasted long, and I think Frodo would have been around at least until Sam arrived, and I can see them being together until the end. I can also see Gimli hanging on for a long time. Dwarves were hardier than all the other Mortals.

As for Amandil and his pals, I believe they made it to Eressea if not Valinor. I would hazard a guess that his pleas and intervention is why Elendil and his sons made it out of there with all their ships intact. Considering the destructions leveled against Numenor, they would have needed some help getting out of there.

[DarkElfChilde]

There's something that I didn't know...Sam came to Valinor too, yeah?

[Andreth]

Yep, after Rosie died Sam went to Valinor. Since he was a Ringbearer too, even for just a short time, an invitation to Valinor was extended to Sam, too.

[DarkElfChilde]

Okay, thanks. Hmm, now that sparked an idea for my next chapter. My writer's block is gone for now.

[Lossefalme01]

Hrm... I guess this is kind of related to Sauron.... and I was wondering if anyone could help me out with this...

I need a bad guy! But it can't be Sauron because this will take place about 100 of the Fourth Age and Sauron wouldn't have enough strength to come back in any form yet. Still, I need a really evil person for my bad guy, and he's got to know about the ruins of Angband, and it would help if he was pretty powerful... so... does anyone have any ideas?

I've thought of using a lieutenant of Sauron's, but I don't much detail about what those people were like... and were they men? Or Orcs or Uruk-hai or what? This bad guy is going to want revenge on the people who destroyed his master, so he had to have been in service to Sauron somehow, I guess.

I need to do more research about it but I thought I should ask since there seem to lots of people who know things I don't on this site! Any info or help on this matter would be very very VERY much appreciated!!!! THANKS!!!!