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JaneDoe
Joined: 19 Nov 2003
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Location: My own little world
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 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject: sorry for length |
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I did a little research on this recently, and it seems to me that the reason why Elrond's children seem to be given special treatment is because their predicament is unique.
Dior, the child of Beren and Luthien, dies tragically young (courtesy of the sons of Feanor). He was killed before he could make any choice as to which fate he would follow, but not before he could have children. He leaves behind Elwing and two sons. The two sons go missing, but they are perhaps dead.
Earendil and Elwing fall in love, marry, and produce Elros and Elrond prior to the Valar demanding that they choose which fate they would follow. They both choose to be counted among the Elves, but the matter still remains unresolved because their children were born prior to this decision.
Elros and Elrond are given their choice, and we all know what happens. What is different about them is that their children only come after they make their choice. As an earlier poster said, since the Valar cannot take away the Gift of Men, Elros decided not only his fate, but the fate of all his descendants thereafter. So, that settles that.
The children of Elrond, then, are the only ones in a unique position. As with Elros, the children of Elrond also have their fates tied to their father. The Valar, perhaps seeing the time of the Elves in Middle-earth quickly waning, hinge their fate upon the decision to sail to Valinor with Elrond or not. It makes a great deal of sense to put things that way.
In any case, what is perplexing is why Elrond's children get the choice that Elros' descendants do not. I believe it has more to do with the Gift of Man than with anything particular about the Half-elven.
However, for a more, ahem, unconventional view of the idea, this is something I wrote on a mailing list not too long ago (snipped non-essential bits):
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I just got a weird notion in my head about Elrond's ancestry and whether or not Earendil is truly his father, or if it was merely recorded as such by later historians (such as Tolkien) to save face. Especially keeping in mind Tolkien's advice to take the words of Men regarding Elves with a grain of salt, it makes me wonder what sorts of things we think we know about Tolkien's Elves would be mistakes, sugar-coated versions of the truth, or even lies. ... Not to put too fine a point on it, this is my question: What if Elrond were illegitimate?
Think about it. Maglor (a son of Feanor the uber-Noldo) took care of him in childhood, and he was later under the care of Gil-galad (one of the greatest leaders ever to walk Middle-earth, also a Noldo) as an adolescent and young adult. Not to mention serving as Gil-galad's herald and vice regent for about 3500 years, as well as the fact that Imladris is probably the last surviving cultural center of the Noldor (initially built by and for the Gwaith-i-Mirdain). Therefore, the Noldor influence is probably greater than the Sindar influence, despite the fact that most of his ancestors were Sindar. So, it seems strange that he would prefer to align himself with his mother's people despite the fact that their influence upon him is limited.
It certainly is not beyond the bounds of possibility. With Earendil gone most of the time, and Elwing left by herself, it is possible (however unlikely) that she may find affection and companionship with another. Heck, it may even be one of those rare moments in her life (as with other Elves, I am sure) that she acted purely on physical desire or out of such desperate longing that she sought a replacement for Earendil, perhaps regretting the lapse in judgement later on. There has to be some reason why she didn't seem particularly troubled by abandoning her children by leaping off a tower into the ocean. Mayhap she feels guilty about something? Hm?
As for whether or not adultery (or even having more than one great love) is possible with Elves, if Finwe's case is any indicator, Elves can love and marry more than once in their lifetime, even if their natures and customs prevent it in most cases. The idea that they are rarely driven by desires of the body alone need not indicate that they cannot be attracted to more than one person in their lifetime ...
I won't get into what Earendil could have been up to in his long absences. If mariner is a fancy word for sailor, I don't think I need to elaborate on what he may have been doing to keep him away for so long. 
But this opens up some very strange cosmological questions. What would the choice of the Half-elven mean in light of the possibility that Elrond may technically not be Half-elven at all? Insomuch as he can identify himself as primarily Sindar despite the Noldorin cultural influence, perhaps the choice of the Half-elven has less to do with biology and more to do with psychology and spirituality, especially as it relates to identity. Maybe Illuvatar offered the choice because of the influence of mortals and immortals, rather than by the presence of human or Elven genetics. Despite possibly not being his biological father, it's more than likely that Elrond and Elros felt Earendil's presence in their lives, perhaps from what Elwing may have told them about Earendil (who favored the Mannish part of himself, though he chose the fate of the Elves). None of the other Elves in this history of Middle-earth had this opportunity. By the time they became familiar with Men, their identities as Elves was already sealed. They may have liked or even loved Men. They may have envied Men for the gift of death, but I doubt they truly could empathize and identify with them. In other words, could Elrond be living proof that biology isn't destiny?
But then the question arises: if Earendil were not Elrond's father, who would it be? Gil-galad? Cirdan? Someone whose name is lost to antiquity?
Then again, Elrond may consider himself more his mother's son because his father wasn't home that much. |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know exactly how I feel about the Twinkie issue. On the one hand, it does make sense if they spent their entire lives in ME and didn't want to leave - but A LOT of Elves spent their entire lives in ME (Elrond - Cirdan - Celebrian - Legolas) who passed over the sea. So I don't know how much grounding their is there 
Also, they obviously loved their parents (specifically their mother) very, very much. I can't see them choosing mortality after their sister died and leaving their parents child-less. By that time, Elrond would have lost pretty much everybody. His parents, his brother, his daughter, his sons... I suppose I just don't want his life to be that tragic  Elrond is one of those elfies you just want to hug until they squeak. 
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and I'm a smartarse? I thought for sure you guys would make me the resident LAZYarse.
Either way, as long as I get an arse.
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:14 pm Post subject: Elrond's Parentage |
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Even if Elrond is illegitimate, he still would have had human blood in him from his mother, who was a descendant of Beren.
Is there any indication about what sort of twins Elrond and Elros were? If they were fraternal twins, the product of two separate eggs, there is a very miniscule chance that they could have two fathers. If they are identical twins, however, they originated from one embryo that split in the very early stages of development. All that to say that they have to have the same parents.
Elladan and Elrohir are described as identical twins. While this does not absolutely prove that Elros and Elrond were also identical twins, it tends to make me strongly suspect that they were. (This is based on nothing other than my own sense of continuity. I have no scientific data to back up this opinion.)
Personal opinion ahead. Take with a grain of salt. Feel free to reject/ignore.
While the idea is obviously well thought out and interesting, there are a few too many 'what ifs' involved for me to personally consider the idea as potentially fitting into canon.
It doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy a story based on the premise. It just means that, in my opinion, it's a little too far-fetched for a non AU story.
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road
Last edited by Haleth on Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: |
Either way, as long as I get an arse.  l: |
The question of course, is whose arse you'd....oh, nevermind.
I
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Elrond is one of those elfies you just want to hug until they squeak. |
I'd hug him until he squeaked, but probably not with the same motivation...
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
Posts: 2108
Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | | BittenBuggy wrote: | | Elrond is one of those elfies you just want to hug until they squeak. |
I'd hug him until he squeaked, but probably not with the same motivation... |
Why SP, I do believe you just said something naughty.
Horray! More converts! Ah, I love this place.
 <---- Resident pervies
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, quick question (apologies for being slightly OT) SP, is a Weavil what I think it is? Those maggoty little things that get into your flour when you leave it up in your cuboard for more than 6 months?
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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Saralitazie
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Location: Stamping Property of Litzy the Lush all over Glorfindel.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yup
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | | Ok, quick question (apologies for being slightly OT) SP, is a Weavil what I think it is? Those maggoty little things that get into your flour when you leave it up in your cuboard for more than 6 months? |
Yeah. I just always spell it wrongly.
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | The question is, were Elros's children given the Choice like Elrond's children were? The choice between Elves and Men? I was under the impression that the choice was null and void once someone chose Mortality. |
Isn't there a bit somewhere (HoME? Letters?) that indicates that Elrond's kiddos got an extra-special choice because Celebrian was so incredibly elfy? After all, Elros's kiddos weren't even half elven... |
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Haleth
Joined: 27 Sep 2003
Posts: 538
Location: The ruins of Tharbad.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Good call, Viv. There's a bit in letter number 153 that says more or less what you said.
| Quote: | | The view is that the Half-Elven have a power of (irrevokable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his decendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race...Elrond chose to be amony the Elves. His children-with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galdariel- have to make their choices. ...Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told. They delay their choice and remain for a while.' |
Hmm...I wish he'd mentioned something about the descendants of Mitherellas and Imrazor, Prince Imharil's ancesstors.
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Books would not be read, and pipes would not smoke. The day slipped out of his hand, running aimlessly to waste. JRR Tolkien. The Lost Road |
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Saralitazie
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 297
Location: Stamping Property of Litzy the Lush all over Glorfindel.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously. They were halfies too, so why don't we hear about their choices? They had to have made 'em...eventually....
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"Society does not want free men. They torment freedom, democracy, anything you want. But they do not want free men. Society wants conditioned men; men who march in step." - Henri Charriere
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Saralitazie wrote: | | Seriously. They were halfies too, so why don't we hear about their choices? They had to have made 'em...eventually.... |
As I understand it, half-elves didn't automatically get choices. Elrond and Elros got to choose because of Papa Earendil's little stunt.
Besides, we all know Tolkien didn't care about wood elves. They could have been half-breeding all over Middle-earth and we wouldn't have heard about it.  |
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