[JaneDoe]

Astrology has been one of my favorite subjects for a while now. In particular, I like pondering the significance of the symbols of the planets and signs involved, especially as they relate to individual charts. What this frequently means is that I confuse myself. However, in the past, I'd taken to thinking of Elrond's natal chart and what it would look like. Yes, I know that Middle Earth's sky and ours are very different, but that doesn't mean we can't have any fun.

For the longest time, I thought that Elrond was a Capricorn. Why? Well, there are a few reasons, but mostly because of that deep, quiet despair that seethes just beneath the surface. Elrond has a lot of responsibility heaped upon his shoulders, and more often than not nobody understands the true depths of that burden (save for Gandalf). Elrond bears it all with a stiff upper lip. You never see him falter or break down, ESPECIALLY not in public. Indeed, it seems that he hides his sadness so as not to cause worry or concern to others. This is very much a Capricorn trait as well. There is a loneliness to him that is reminiscent of a view from the mountaintop (another symbol associated with Capricorn).

Archetypally speaking, Capricorn is linked to the Father. Unlike Mother, Father does not nurtue but provides strength, guidance, will, stability, and protection. In addition to his own offspring, Elrond has served in this capacity for a long line of royal Men, especially for Aragorn. One could even say that Rivendell is an extention of Elrond's connection to the archetypal Father. Last, but not least, Elrond also possesses the steadfastness, patience, and wisdom borne of experience that are the gifts of this sign.

And then there's another buzzword for Capricorn: ambition. At first glance, one would think that Elrond, while certainly an achiever, is not particularly ambitious. It's there, but it's carefully locked behind a door deep within his psyche. The key to that door is Arwen. Don't believe me? Let's examine the facts: After finding out that Arwen and Aragorn are in love, he forbids the two to marry until Aragorn is made king of Gondor and Arnor. It would seem that Elrond suffers from the Daddy's Little Princess Deserves No Less syndrome, and to an extent that is true. However, why give Aragorn this seemingly impossible task instead of sloughing Arwen off on Legolas? Arwen's love for Aragorn notwithstanding, the Prince of Mirkwood is not exactly the same as a stable boy. Not to mention, he wouldn't have to worry about Legolas dying on him, or his daughter not sailing to Valinor with him. So, what could have provoked this decision? I think that ultimately Elrond realized the futility of trying to keep them apart (even as it broke his heart to know this), but he also realized that just because his daughter chose to be mortal, that didn't mean any Man who came along would do. By permitting the union after Aragorn reunites Gondor and Arnor, he is establishing (or rather, preserving) a legacy for his descendants, allowing his work in Middle Earth to persevere even though he is not there to witness it.

And then there is the symbolism of the goat as embodied by Capricorn. While goat is indeed appropriate, in many cases the Capricorn goat is portrayed as having a goat's front end with a fish tail. Sort of like a caprine mermaid or merman. I think this is a very visual representation of the main impulses in human nature. The goat, of course, represents the animalistic urges, but also, in the act of climbing mountains, symbolizes the lofty peaks of reason. The fish tail is spirituality and its mysterious, unfathomable depths. While it seems that at first these aspects are constantly at odds (and they often are), it is possible to balance them into a harmonious whole. The person who manages to do this reaps all kinds of benefits: wisdom, compassion, justice, and all sorts of things that enrich life and shows us its bounty, which is the cornucopia come from Amalthea's broken horn (long story short: Amalthea was the goat who suckled Zeus as an infant while his mother, Rhea, had hid him from his father who had a nasty tendency of eating the other children; Amalthea's broken horn became the cornucopia, or horn of plenty).

Elrond, it seems, has achieved this, especially considering the disciplines he has mastered: warfare, scholarship, and healing. Warfare represents the base instinct to survive. The fact that Elrond survived the war at the end of the 2nd Age says much about the fact that his killer instinct is well-honed, although much subdued by the end of the 3rd Age. Elrond's achivements as a scholar and loremaster, as well as his establishment of a library in Rivendell represents his mastery of his rational, logial nature. The fact that he has mastered several languages and is a fountain of knowledge shows that his is probably the one of the brightest minds in Middle Earth (next to Gandalf and perhaps Galadriel). Although it would seem that Elrond's gift for medicine is pragmatic and intellectual, from the way Tolkien describes it, its roots are more spiritual. Historically speaking, the practice of medicine was seen as more spiritual than physical or mental. So, Elrond's profession (besides being Lord of Rivendell) as a healer represents his achievements in the spiritual realm.

But what about that horn of plenty? What rewards did Elrond reap for his efforts? Wisdom. Wealth. Prestige. And consider these facts: Every king descended from Numenor since the establishment of Imladris has had Elrond as something of a foster father. He is actually uncle to all of them by blood. Think for a moment about the kind of subtle but undeniable influence Elrond has on the development of the most powerful nation of Men.

There is a historical element to the goat symbolism as well. Due to the perception of the goat as a profane animal (hard-headed, unclean and obssessed with sex) in ancient Hebrew cultures, goats were often used as sacrificial animals meant to carry the sins of the people (hence, scapegoat). Destroying the animal was a symbolic purging of sin. In Elrond's case, I can see his decision to become Elven as a symbolic purging of human frailties. He maintains human emotional resiliency while ridding himself of human greed. He keeps the compassion for human failings and suffering without being as susceptible to temptation. His warmth and generosity seem more genuine than more otherworldly Elves (save for Galadriel, who's a bit more than just an elf).

However, after further thought and consideration, another sign crops up that I had overlooked: Sagittarius. What? The jovial, lucky, tact-impaired Archer fits the wise, diplomatic Elrond? Consider the symbol and the legends behind it, and you begin to see startling parallels. Of particular importance is the story of Chiron the centaur, who was, according to mythology, placed in the heavens by Zeus and became the constellation for Sagittarius. Chiron was renowned for his knowledge, wisdom, and compassion (learned from being born an outsider, aka "freak"). All the kings sent their sons to be instructed by him. He even taught such luminaries as Jason, Hercules, Asclepius, and Achilles. He excelled at several disciplines, but healing was his gift. By some accident, Chiron was wounded by a poisoned arrow. However, the toxin was so strong that all attempts to heal it failed. Being immortal, Chiron could not die from the wound (thus ending his suffering). But Zeus granted him mortality and placed him in the heavens as a reward for his virtue and his guidance of many Greek kings and heroes.

This myth is so close to Elron'd life story it's uncanny. Let's start with his birth. Elrond is Half-Elven, a blend between Man and Elf. The implications of this are the same as Chiron's form of a man-horse. Within both figures, we see the duality of man and beast, human and divine, Heaven and Earth. For many, it would seem that the baseness of one part inhibits the full expression of the more transcendant aspect, but in the case of Elrond and Chiron, it would seem that the presence of that "lower" nature makes the "higher" part all the more profound. What this implies (and this is my own interpretation), is that rather than preventing divinity from manifesting itself, human nature enhances it. While still more noble and virtuous than most Men, Elrond is still accessible. Indeed, his greatest achievement in Middle Earth would probably be the fact that through raising generations of kings, many Men have learned and preserved the virtues of wisdom, justice, and compassion based on Elrond's example.

And then there is the poisoned wound both Chiron and Elrond sustain. Whereas the first bore a physical wound, the second is injured in a more emotional way. Consider the following facts. Elrond's parents, Earendil and Elwing, died (or rather, left him) when he was young. His brother chose mortality and died early in the 2nd Age. His daughter chose the same fate (for love of his foster son too; how's that for irony?). And it is not entirely unlikely that his sons too chose to become Men. Even if they did follow Elrond to Valinor, knowledge of Arwen's eventual death would be no less painful. So, where does this leave our favorite Peredhel? Basically, for everything he's done, for he's suffered, he is rewarded by being separated from those closest to him.

Finally, there is Chiron's death. This is probably where Elrond's story veers furthest from the Greek myth, but perhaps this is not so. If you view death as merely physical, then it would seem that Elrond's death is something of an oxymoron. However, if you think of death as spiritual and psychological transition, things take on a new meaning. Consider how Elves speak longingly of Valinor. For them, it is a land of bounty and bliss, free from the burdens and cares of this world. Is it so different from how we speak of the afterlife, and heaven in particular? In this case, it would seem that Elves who travel to Valinor die in the sense that they leave behind the flawed, imperfect world in order to experience a new kind of life. Elrond's decision to go to Valinor is much like Chiron's request to die from his wound. Better to be forever separated from his daughter than to watch her decay and die. Both Elrond and Chiron choose a permanent method of alleviating suffering. Tolkien didn't write about what happens to Elrond after he arrives in Valinor, but I would not be surprised if the Peredhel were granted some gift or boon by the Valar. But, I diverge. Let's return to the original idea.

I think that if Elrond had anything comparable to a natal chart on this world, he would have heavy influences from both signs. Perhaps he'd have the Sun in one and the other as the Ascendant. Maybe there would be several planets concentrated in the 9th and 10th houses. Better yet, I could see a powerful Jupiter and Saturn positions and aspects. I suspect a great deal of 12th house activity too, especially since Pisces is connected to spiritual mysteries and sacrifice. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were a powerful 8th house or Plutonian connection, especially since these cover death, inheritance, and legacies. I'm reluctant to mention Scorpio because of the frequent and often immediate link people make between this sign and sex. Not that it isn't true, but it's quickly becoming cliche. I also intuit some powerful things happening in the 4th house or with the sign of Cancer since many of Elrond's most profound issues center around his family in one way or another. As far as Elrond's Venus and Mars are concerned, I think that they would probably be located in more subtle, subdued signs or perhaps in houses where their expression is a bit less outwardly forceful. The 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 12th houses seem most likely. I'll have to do more research to be sure.

Beyond just the Sun Sign, though, there are other planets and positions that bear investigation to fully understand this enigmatic and deceptively congenial character. In particular, the Moon sign describes how his emotions function. The source I used for this is a wonderful book called "Sun Sign, Moon Sign" by Charles and Suzy Harvey. It's a resource book giving a general personality portrait of every sun sign and moon sign combination. Going from my earlier intuition that Elrond is most likely a Capricorn, I examined each of the profiles and came to the conclusion that Elrond is most likely a Sun-sign Capricorn and a Moon-sign Cancer, or a Sun-sign Capricorn with a Scorpio Moon. How and why I came to this conclusion isn't particularly important. What is interesting is the individual that these two profiles represent. I'll paraphrase what the book said below for each profile. Suffice it to say that Lord Elrond is a complex, deeply emotional individual beneath that dignified exterior.

SUN IN CAPRICORN, MOON IN CANCER
This individual is a contradiction. He is both tough and soft, ambitious and fearful of risk, sensitive and pragmatic, emotive and reserved. The center of his dilemma is the inner vs. the outer world. He yearns for closeness and intimacy, but he sees life is harsh, challenging, and unsentimental.

This person is serious, sensitive, immensely capable, and has an uncanny understanding of human nature. He makes an excellent manager of people and projects because he has a gift for seeing the big picture, determination, and sensitivity to others' needs and abilities. This character thrives on work that combines a sense of mission with a deep emotional (even religious) commitment. At his most creative, he combines the gentle mother with the firm father. How about fostering the entire line of Isildur, especially Aragorn? Or Rivendell functioning smoothly with all those Noldor and Sindar running around, with the occasional Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits who come along?

Relationships are integral to his life, but he may be afraid to admit it. He desires intimacy but may fear such closeness. He needs to be needed but is strongest when standing alone.

His good points: strong powers of observation and a love of nature

Not-so-good points: conflict about whether to be tender or tough, tends to take criticism personally, and has a self-absorbed preoccupation with his own feelings. Did Elrond even consider that Aragorn's feelings about Arwen could be as powerful (or rather, important) as his own?

SUN IN CAPRICORN, MOON IN SCORPIO
This person's goals, beliefs, and values become personal obsessions. His instincts tell him to be prepared for the onslaughts of life because it can come when least expected. More than anyone, he refuses to be caught with his pants down.

He is naturally self-controlled, shrewd, and judicial. In some ways he has a resonance with suffering and the darker side of human nature and wants to do something about it. Remember a little trip that some nine people were taking to a little place called Mount Doom?

He is extremely trustworthy, loyal, and conventional. He tends to be ruthless with himself and others, demanding total vigilance, commitment, and high standards. Isildur at Mount Doom (with a very tempting Ring), anyone? How about the part where Aragorn can't even think about marrying Arwen until he's king of Gondor andArnor?

This individual's intensity may express itself as superb sature and a wicked sense of humor and is likely to say things like, "Nor is it entirely possible to separate you even though he is summoned to a secret council, and you are not." Most of the time, though, he's focused on the serious business of his role and responsibilities (father, lord of Rivendell, member of the White Council, healer, scholar, etc.).

In relationships, he is a wonderful home-maker and a protective parent. Would any sane parent trust their children and heirs to Elrond if he weren't? He doesn't give up easily, so he is often the tireless backbone and power behind the throne of a family (line of Isildur) or company (Elves of Middle-earth). He doesn't let go easily unless emotional events strike a nerve so deeply that he goes off the deep end temporarily. Can you imagine what he was like after Celebrian sailed for Valinor, or when he realized Arwen was forsaking immortality to be with Aragorn? How about Isildur walking off with the One Ring? Catharsis is healthy for him because it releases the tensions of constant vigilance and his desire to keep out unwanted threats to his well-being. Maybe this means Elrond likes to set things on fire when he's really upset.

This character manages to deepen and transform- even just a little- everyone he comes in contact with. Aragorn (especially movie Aragorn): from whining "I don't want to be king" to swinging Anduril all over Middle-earth.

His good points: moral integrity, perceptive mind, fervent support of underdog (Frodo and Sam, Aragorn, Men at Helm's Deep), compassion, courage to undergo suffering for the sake of renewal.

Not-so-good points: too serious, rigid, accusatory and blind to his own predjudices ("Men are weak" indeed), can get stuck in his own pessimistic attitudes ("There is nothing for you here. Only death." Very cheerful, aren't we, Elrond?)

This is about all I could come up with. What about you? Do you see some astrological parallels with Tolkien characters. (Such as Feanor definitely being a Leo).

[VanatheEverYoung]

Astrology is a hobby of mine also. I'm fairly unskilled at natal charts, however. (I messed up my own three times if that’s any indication.) I also have pondered LOTR characters and their signs. You've obviously put a lot of thought into Elrond's sign. It's a hard case to argue against. I'm going with the Sun Capricorn-Moon Cancer.

[Eyborg]

Hey girls... this is really interesting! I have to admit that I didn't go through the whole Elrond thing at this time, but as for him possibly being a Capricorn sounds pretty logical. Also Arwen being a Cancer...
Astrology is also one of my guilty pleasures, and I remember that some time ago I was having a chat with SilverMoonLady about what could possibly be the signs of the LOTR characters. We already know that Frodo & Bilbo are Virgos, and Aragorn is a Pisces, because it's mentioned in the book (I mean, their dates of birth). We made some guesses, and this is what we came up with:

Sam = Taurus
Merry = Sagittarius or Leo
Pippin = Gemini
Boromir = Aries or Scorpio
Faramir = Libra
Denethor = Scorpio
Éomer = Leo
Éowyn = Aries
Legolas = Aquarius

We weren't sure about Gimli or Théoden... perhaps somebody out there has ideas? Or perhaps some other ideas about the characters I've already mentioned? All in good fun of course...

[JaneDoe]

Note: As I was writing this, my mind took some interesting turns which I think have bearing on the discussion, but it might not seem it at first. Since I have a background in English language, literature, and writing, a bit of character analysis (well, a lot) will go into it. However, I am using the astrology angle as my starting point, so please bear with me.

Vana> Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with your assertions about Arwen being a Cancer. It describes very eloquently everything about the closeness and conflict in her relationship with Elrond and Aragorn. At least, as they are portrayed in the films, since the books don't go into that at all. In a way, it's because they are a lot more alike than they are different. Both of them are deeply emotional, both of them are sensitive, both of them are security-conscious, and both of them are tenacious. When things go well, these are foundations for a very deep, powerful bond between the two. When they are in conflict, it's not pretty. You see the neediness, clinginess, and stubbornness get in the way of understanding and acceptance.

The Cancer-Capricorn opposition has a bearing on things too. Elrond is still essentially a Capricorn through and through; he and Arwen are as different as a mountain and the sea. Although he does have his soft side, this is most emphatically not openly expressed except with a chosen few. He is first and foremost concerned with his responsibilities (rule Rivendell, heal Frodo, give shelter and protection to those seeking his wisdom, take care of Bilbo in his old age, hold council, make sure Arwen doesn't throw her life away, help out the Men at Helm's Deep, tell Aragorn about the Paths of the Dead and give him his toys so he can become king) and his ambitions (a lasting influence in Middle-earth). He uses his knowledge, wisdom, and resources in practical ways. He's not outwardly cryptic or mystical. He does not sit on his centuries of experience and his gift of foresight. He uses it for the good of others but is ironically powerless to help himself and those dearest to him.

He can also be ruthless and willing to hurt his loved ones if it means that he gets what he wants. Elrond's speech accentuates the loneliness, insecurity, and grief facing Arwen as a result of her choice and is a masterful play upon Arwen's fears to convnce her to come with him to Valinor. He even guilt-trips Aragorn into trying to break up with Arwen. It is emotional blackmail of the highest order.

Of course, he does a fine job of convincing himself it's for their own good. Yet the truth remains that he is fundamentally looking out for his own security. The conversation he has with Aragorn in The Two Towers is very telling. It's too easy to dismiss this comment as Elrond showing prejudice toward Men. The particular words he uses and the way he says them reveal much about his relationship with Arwen. First let's talk about delivery. Except in a couple of cases, Elrond is serious and apprehensive, and with good reason given that the fate of the world hangs around the neck of a Hobbit. However, he is not often emotionally expressive (that Capricorn Sun again). But when he speaks to Aragorn, he is visibly struggling to stay calm (that deep breath before "Our time is ending. Arwen's time is ending."). By the second line, his iron grip on his self-control starts to slip (that don't-fuck-with-me look he gives Aragorn when he says, "I will not leave my daughter here to die.") When he says the final line (which are incidentally the last words of that conversation), he is on the verge of losing his temper. Aragorn prudently leaves before he says or does something stupid.

When he starts to lose control, the words he uses when he says "my daughter" and "belongs" so close together when he speaks, it carries connotations of ownership and possession. I'm not saying he sees her as an object; his words and behavior toward her indicate that he does see her as a person. Nevertheless, though she is an individual in her own right, she is first and foremost his. This is an attitude many parents have toward their children, especially their youngest children and/or the only son/daughter. They see their offspring as extensions of themselves, so whatever they do or whatever happens to them feels like it is done by or happens to the parent. Elrond's nastiness toward Aragorn in that scene does not come from fear that Aragorn will hurt her but from fear that Aragorn will take her away from him. When Elrond says, "I will not leave my daughter here to die...She stays for you. She belongs with her people," he seems to mean, "I will not abandon what is mine...She stays with you. She belongs with me" (emphasis mine).

Both Capricorns and Cancers can be possessive toward what they value. Since these signs together represent the archetypal Father and Mother, and since Arwen is literally Elrond's child, the dynamics of his relationship with her are compounded. Elrond is actually very reasonable, but carrying the weight not just of his individual temperament and his powerful feelings, but also the weight of two of the most pervasive and influential archetypes, sitting down and calmly talking about the situation like rational adults is just not going to happen. You might as well try to talk a mountain into moving or the tides into reversing. At this point, what is being dealt with is not Elrond the person but Elrond the force of nature. There is no convincing or compromise that will work. He will not be moved by anything but his own will. The best anybody else can do is to avoid him (like Aragorn initially does), appease him (which Aragorn later does), or cope with him and hope for the best (as Arwen does). Thankfully, by the end of Return of the King, Elrond has learned to let go, and even then not gladly.

And now onto Arwen.

As a Cancer, Arwen is first and foremost concerned with her emotions (not merely moods; we're talking love, hate, joy, and misery not happy, grumpy, or sad) and her securty. She does seem free-spirited in that she does not allow anyone to control her. She's very subtle about it though. By the time someone realizes she intends to do something, it's already over and done with, and the best to be done is to cope with it. I'm pretty sure that if Elrond had one whiff of her eventual feelings toward Aragorn, he would have considered putting her on house arrest for a few decades (for her own good, of course). When she rides out to meet Frodo, Aragorn telling her, "Stay in Rivendell. It's too dangerous" would come a little late. His paltry attempt to get her to let him take Frodo falls to pieces when she matter-of-factly says, "I am the faster rider." When Aragorn tries to break up with her, she's not having it. She's pretty much saying, "I'm not taking this back. You're my Man." I would venture that her free-spiritedness and her daredevil streak merits an influence from Aries, Sagittarious, or Aquarius. More than likely, I'd put one or more of these signs as her Ascendant, Moon, and/or Mars.

As far as Elrond being a Sagittarius, there's a reason why I put that theory second. I wasn't going by the actual constellations and birth dates (since they are very different in Arda than today), but how their lives parallel the imagery and symbolism of the sign. There is a reason, after all, that astrologers chose those particular images. The connection with the metaphor, in my experience, is often more important than a person's birthday. I've met more people who have "gone against type" than have gone against the deeper meanings and symbolism of their sign. In Elrond's case, there is a strong resonance with the man-beast, human-divine aspect and with the poisoned wound that can only be relieved with death. However, his resonance with Capricorn is much stronger.

As for other characters, let's see:
Galadriel: Leo. She always knew she wanted to be a queen when she grew up. It's why she left Valinor to begin with. Her regal bearing and her golden hair (a Leonine color if there ever was one) make her a shoe-in for a Leo Sun. "The Shibboleth of Feanor" portrays her as the quintessential superwoman: athletic, courageous, willful, and intelligent. She is not just "good for a girl," but excels beyond just about anybody's abilities. Her mother-name, the name which describes her nature most accurately, is Nerwen, meaning "man-maiden," emphasizing the "masculine" quality of her nature. However, this is softened with the influence of sensitive, psychic Cancer or Pisces.

Elladan and Elrohir: Driven by a lust for revenge beyond all reason, I'd say they are strongly influenced by Scorpio.

Legolas and Gimli: I'm unsure, but let's examine their relationship a bit and see where it takes us. First, there is initially a lot of tension between them, both as individuals and as members of different races. Even as their comraderie grows, there is always that element of competition between them, so there is likely a Mars influence somewhere in their signs. Legolas comes across as charmingly adolescent. He's dashing, daring, bold, forthright, and humorous. Gimli is all things earthy: practical, stubborn, and sensual (not sexual; he's just oriented to the world of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and textures; it includes sex but is not exclusive to it). Because of this, I would say Legolas is an Aries or a Sagittarius (the archer thing notwithstanding), and Gimli is a Taurus with a bit of fire in his chart to give him his spunk and competitiveness. Both of them would have signficant things going on in the 11th house (associated with Aquarius, the sign of friendship).

Theoden: Aries all the way. It's a telling sign when you are old and decrepit then completely recover once you get a sword in your hand.

Grima: Scorpio. The less than wholesome black hair and pale skin and the dominance of black in his costume aside, Grima is motivated by hidden longings and ruled by desires he keeps secret. Everything about him goes on beneath the surface, and it is only when it's almost too late that his true nature is discovered. He is also ruthless enough to be willing to give Saruman information that could bring harm to hundreds of women and children in order to feed his need for revenge. He also slits Sharkey's throat later on. Desire (or rather, obsession), secrecy, and ruthlessness. Yup, Scorpio.

Bormoir: Aries sounds about right. Warrior, check. Leader, check. Direct in words, check. More comfortable with action than contemplation, check. Intelligent despite hastiness, check. Since I agree with Faramir being a Libra, having Boromir be an Aries goes far to explain how different they are.

[JaneDoe]

[VanatheEverYoung]

Yay! I got Arwen right!

[Eyborg]

[VanatheEverYoung]

Maybe I stated that wrong. I didn't meant a lack of those signs. I meant a shortage. Two Virgos, one Gemini, and a possible Aquarius (you, JaneDoe, and I all disagree on that one). That's not a lot when you consider the number of Aries, Leos, and Scorpios. Geesh. Middle-earth is just full of egotistical warrior leaders.



I should keep my big mouth shut. I'm gonna get myself beat up talking about scary people like that.

[Eyborg]

He he... no problem Vana, I get you. That gives me the idea: Perhaps it just shows how different the hobbits' personalities are from the men & elves? Just an idea...
Oh, and we have almost no Libras either! Just Faramir... possibly...

[JaneDoe]

Vana>

As for Legolas being an Aries, I thought I did explain it, but I'll elaborate. Legolas' abilities as an archer by itself does not justify Sagittarius in my mind. Primary in my imagining of Sagittarius is not the joviality, bluntness, and gregariousness often tacked on to the sign, but the duality of human and animal, heaven and earth, sacred and profane. The image of the centaur is telling. On the one hand, you have the intellect, which is the center of science, art, culture, philosophy (Sagittarius buzzword), and the like. On the other hand, you have instincts that propel you to seek pleasure and avoid pain. If you add the mythology of Chiron, you have the poisoned wound that never heals, a symbol of some sort of trauma that the person has suffered yet can never seem to get rid of.

In addition, there is the expansive and broadening quality due to its ruling planet Jupiter. Jupiter makes things more extreme by expanding what is already there. So, extraversion becomes gregariousness, introversion becomes withdrawal, honesty becomes bluntness, sensuality becomes hedonism, etc.

As the first sign of the zodiac, and a fire sign to boot, Aries possesses the zest, courage, and confidence aplenty but maintains a certain innocence that is lacking in later signs (of which Sagittarius is a member; fun-loving and forthright they may be, but naivete is not a trait I associate with them). Legolas is no slouch in the courage department. He is very good at what he does, and he knows it, which shows up in a display of cockiness from time to time, especially around Gimli. He is fiercely loyal to his friends (the fierceness shows the influence of Mars). He does, however, have a competitive streak, common in all fire signs to an extent but particularly strong in Aries. He refuses to lose; the most he can tolerate is a tie. See TTT EE DVD for details. He lacks a lot of experience outside his home in Mirkwood prior to joining the Felllowship, and as he experiences things like war and death, it seems as if it is all very new and very disturbing to him. Someone like Elrond, for instance, is used to it and more or less expects it. Legolas always seems taken by surprise that one of his friends could be killed. After Aragorn falls off the cliff in TTT and is assumed dead, his surprise is evident. While I suppose he intellectually knows that people die in wars, he seems emotionally incapable of comprehending that this includes the ones he knows and loves.

As to the lack of Geminis (or double-signs in general), here is something that explains things pretty well:

[VanatheEverYoung]

Hmm ... very interesting. I hadn't heard of single and double signs before. I'm almost entirely in the double sign category. And here I thought it was just Gemini-Moon making me crazy. It's the whole chart!

I still disagree about Leggy. I was raised solely by an Aries mother, so I have a set idea of what that sign entails. And it's not Legolas. But, we can agree to disagree and still have a fun discussion.

[DarkElfChilde]

This is pretty interesting, especially what Legolas is or isn't. I'm going to continue to check back on this discussion.


DEC

[SecretKeeper]

I have found this an interesting thread and deserves some sane response.

I've always thought of Elrond as an Aquarius, not precisely a Capricorn however since you put it in that way I would have to agree that he is indeed the sign of the Goat. Yet, he might have some Aquarius in him yet seeing that he's quite the manipulater (subtly) and fairly intellectually traits I've seen in many Aquarians.

Arwen a Crab? DEFINITELY! She's emotional, maternal, intellectual, intuitive and well...she's very crabby (not mood-wise). No further comment except that despite the movie interpretation of Arwen, there's also the books. She's more aloof in the books and also the books are more man-based. In other words, men had a lot of power, but you know how it goes. Her significant other matches her both spiritually, mentally and physically. Damn, they're perfect for each other! Enough said.

Legolas, Water Bearer or the Archer? Hmm...quite a difficult choice there. I'm going to take a gamble. Libra. Why? Well, here's my theory. Libra is the sign of the Scales and for me he has come off as this sign. On a good day he can be diplomatic, easy going, sociable, idealistic and a peacekeeper. The Elf is part of the Fellowship for goodness sake! How much more of a peacekeeper can you get? Eh..don't mind me ranting. Moving on...most Libras that I've known at least male wise have a wicked sense of humour, are fairly aloof and fairly practical. In the books, Fellowship especially, Legolas sings a song about an elven lady related to Lothlorien and for me that's a sign of a total romantic. The only thing is, many Libras are known to be indecisive, flirty and gullible. However, other factors not just his sun sign, for example the other planets like Mercury, Venus, Aries and the rock called the Moon play a role over what his personality is like. I see that he can be very decisive about certain things and I know quite a few Libras that are like that. If they dislike someone then they will but they will be polite anyway or ignore that person. Feel free to criticise my opinions, I'm running out of brain cells.

Gimli, the Dwarf. Ah, what a lovely wacky little dwarf he is. I've always seen him as a Leo. Not only is he stubborn but loyal to a fault. Not only does he have wit but he's got that rustic charm. He's flashy, can be sensitive, very expressive in his emotions and has a flair for the dramatics. Come on, the dwarf's got class. "That only counts as one!" Mind you, humour as well. I know quite a lot of Leos and he reminds me totally of my mom! By the beard of Durin, that's quite a statement! Really though, my mom is practical and can be sensible to a fault however, her bark and bite are equally harsh. I've noticed these traits in Gimli and by Eru, that's scary and comforting at the same time. I know for a fact that Libras and Leos can be quite the competitive people and very good friends. My stepdad was a Libra. My mom gave him a hard time... See what I mean? The arguments and competition that the dwarf and elf go through are my strongest evidence for that. My mom and dad could argue like nobody's business if they wanted too and they both had a wicked sense of humour.

Meriadoc Brandybuck...that's quite a hobbit. Leo. Going back to Gimli, there are lots of Leos in the world and Merry is just one of them. For a hobbit, he's sensible enough but quite the mischief maker. He's very charming, impatient, funny and intelligent. He has spark and courage which is definitely seen in the way he deals with the battle against the Witch-King. You could definitely fall in love with this hobbit and I know I did. He's got the sweetest personality, a little brash but what good is he if he doesn't have that? Stubborn. A very typical Leo trait. Merry's quite the stubborn little hobbit, he was told to stay behind but what did he do? The opposite. He just can't stay still while his friends/country is in trouble. What more can I say? Oh man, I love that little hobbit.

Peregrin Took, what a curious little munchkin (hobbit, please don't stone me)! Gemini? Hmm...I agree yet I disagree. Sure he's flighty, curious, impatient and even devious but I've always thought him as an Aries. He bears the traits of someone who would do things first without thinking. He's also probably the one who comes up with the ideas between himself and Merry. After all, those under Aries are the initators and the leaders. I've known quite a few Aries and they're fairly impudent, rash, charming, and adorable. His courage is hidden but when it comes out, it comes out in spades!

That's all for now...I'm getting tired and I'm getting the evil eye from my mother. Geeze those Leos, take the fun and make the fun out of everything!

[Amlee]

Interesting thread going here.

After reading over it and being a true to the bone Leo myself I have to agree with Eomer, Gimli, and Merry being Leo's.

I would also have to put Sam in there also. He is loyal, stubborn in his beliefs, sensible, his courage is never in doubt and he has wit. All of which are traits of a Leo

[Yavanie]

Not being a true astrology buff, but the sons of Elrond must be geminis (by default) (not cliche, I am one - of a pair)