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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 0 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject: Quenya and Sindarin origins |
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I know that Tolkien based Quenya on Finnish and Sindarin on Welsh, but how similar are the Elvish languages to their inspirations? Could Quenya be mistaken for a dialect of Finnish and Sindarin for a Welsh dialect?
Let me give an example. Because I know Spanish, I can understand Italian in the most basic sense, though I can't speak it. But, someone who has never in their life heard either language might think they were the same, only different dialects. (Let's ignore the Latin connection for right now). So, could someone who speaks Finnish understand Quenya? And could that Finnish-speaker possibly say to the Quenya-speaker "Hmm ... we must speak different dialects, but I understand you well enough, and that's the point."
Guess why I'm asking. Yup, my fic. I'd appreciate any help. _________________
Vána, the Ever-Young
"All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." |
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Ilmatar
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 25
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I am Finnish so I guess I am qualified to answer your question:
No. They sound a bit same and it it really easy for me to pronounce the Quenyan words and phrases since the vowels are the same (exept that we have ä and ö). Other that that it is completely different: no common words. Plus we have double vowels. The consonants that appear in Quenya are very different from the ones in Finnish (for example we never have c of q in out words) too.
Well see for yourself, a Finnish sentence:
Meren suulta, hiekalta, lentäen tuuli etelään;
se lokkien huutoa tuo ja sen kuulen portilla itkevän.
(From Legolas´ song when Boromir dies)
Not very elvish...
Good question though... |
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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 0 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the answer. Even if it wasn't exactly what I was hoping for It's nothing that can't be changed with a few taps of the delete key. In any case, both Quenya and Finnish have a few too many vowels for my taste.  _________________
Vána, the Ever-Young
"All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." |
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SpaceWeavil

Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 23 Location: Looking at shiny things
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I would imagine Welsh and Sindarin are the same way. My knowledge of Welsh is extremely limited, but occasionally I find a Sindarin word that's obviously based on Welsh and that strikes me as familiar. But I don't know if a Welsh speaker would understand Sindarin. Like, I did a bit of Gaelic, which is kind of related to Welsh, but I can't automatically follow Welsh. Same thing though, sometimes I will notice something that is similar.
Don't know if that is of the remotest bit of help _________________ Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
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SecretKeeper

Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 228 Location: Cardinal Rule 1: Never state your location.
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not how accurate wikipedia is but here are a couple links about the subject(s) that I searched, the info is really interesting and I might use some of those links myself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh Hopefully the link works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic "...one of two major divisions of Insular Celtic languages..." as quoted from wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic "one of two major divisions of modern-day Celtic languages" also quoted from wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindarin Hopefully this link works too. _________________ "Merciful Heavens and Hells! There's a sword sticking out from you! Would you like me to pull it out and make your passing easier?" |
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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 0 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Of course it's helpful ... in messing up my chapter . But, that's not your fault. It's mine for not checking before I wrote it. I can fix it, though. It's not a huge problem. I'm just glad I asked before I posted it. That would have been terribly embarassing. _________________
Vána, the Ever-Young
"All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." |
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SecretKeeper

Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 228 Location: Cardinal Rule 1: Never state your location.
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SpaceWeavil

Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 23 Location: Looking at shiny things
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Also if it's that stuff you're interested in, Vana, give me a PM. I've got a load of stuff around here (although it's book form, not URLs or such) on Cornish, Welsh, Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic and Manx Gaelic. I think I had some stuff on Breton as well somewhere but I don't remember seeing it in a while. _________________ Pervy Nazgul Fancier and owner of Fluffy the Fell Beast |
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VanatheEverYoung
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 0 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Geesh, girls! I can barely handle Spanish. (I'm going to be the most worthless European historian EVER). I appreciate all the help, but I don't think I'll be able to use any of this in my current story. I'm going to bookmark those for a later fic. I had a vague plot bunny lurking in the shadows, but the words "extinct languages" set it to work. So, thanks for that!
The whole reason I asked the question was to see if I could possibly have modern humans (who don't know Elvish) and Elves (who don't know any modern languages) communicate. The answer is apprently "no." So, I have a few changes to make. Luckily, I have a "translator" in the form of an OFC.  _________________
Vána, the Ever-Young
"All flowers spring as she passes and open if she glances upon them; and all birds sing at her coming." |
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SecretKeeper

Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 228 Location: Cardinal Rule 1: Never state your location.
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| VanatheEverYoung wrote: |
Geesh, girls! I can barely handle Spanish. (I'm going to be the most worthless European historian EVER). I appreciate all the help, but I don't think I'll be able to use any of this in my current story. I'm going to bookmark those for a later fic. I had a vague plot bunny lurking in the shadows, but the words "extinct languages" set it to work. So, thanks for that!
The whole reason I asked the question was to see if I could possibly have modern humans (who don't know Elvish) and Elves (who don't know any modern languages) communicate. The answer is apprently "no." So, I have a few changes to make. Luckily, I have a "translator" in the form of an OFC.  |
Awesome Vana! I can't wait to read it and hey, you got me thinking about the fic that I'm trying to write, the one with the gold. Ah, got to love Religion and the fact that I'm studying Religion and Cults at school right now seems to be an interesting combo. Oh dear, plot bunnies are forming! AGH! Beware the bunnies! _________________ "Merciful Heavens and Hells! There's a sword sticking out from you! Would you like me to pull it out and make your passing easier?" |
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