[SpaceWeavil]

Discussion on the chapter - 'The Gathering of the Clouds' will officially begin on Monday 7/2/05.

Ellisk will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Hobbit.

[ellisk]

This chapter returns to the Dwarves and Bilbo still hiding out and wondering where Smaug is without knowing what Bard has done. The old thrush appears and they realize he is trying to talk to them. Balin says he wishes the thrush was a raven because the ravens used to speak to the Dwarves. After that conversation, the thrush left and came back with a 'decrepit' old raven who speaks to them and introduces himself as Roac son of Carc, the old raven that knew the Dwarves when they stilled lived in the Lonely Mountain. The raven tells the Dwarves that Smaug is dead but that an army of Lakemen and Elves is on the march hoping to take the Dwarves' treasure. He counsels the Dwarves to listen to Bard in order to see peace between Men and Elves and Dwarves.

Thorin is not happy and vows none of their treasure will be stolen. He asks the raven to send a young bird to the Dwarves' kin in the north and to Dain in the Iron Hills for help. The Raven says that he will not say if this is a good idea or not but agrees to send a messenger and flies off.

Then Thorin orders them all back to the mountain to fortify it (despite Bilbo's comment that they have little food). They fortified the main entrance and brought food back from the banks of the river where they had left their stocks.

Finally, one night the host of Men and Elves arrived and a party approached the main gates where the Dwarves were fortified. Thorin called out asking who they were and what their business was but no one in the party answered and they left. The camp of Men and Elves then moved right up to the mountain so the harps of the Elves could be heard. In response, the Dwarves got their harps and sung a song about the King Under the Mountain returning that pleased Thorin.

The next morning, another party with the banners of the Lake and the Elves approached the wall. Again Thorin asked who they were. Bard hailed Thorin by name and asked him why he was fenced up like a robber. He said he wanted to parley with him. Thorin asked what he wanted to parley about. Bard responded saying, "I am Bard, and by my hand was the dragon slain and your treasure delivered. Is that not a matter that concerns you? Moreover I am by right descent the heir of Girion of Dale, and in your hoard is mingled much of the wealth of his halls and town, which of old Smaug stole. Is not that a matter of which we may speak? Further in his last battle Smaug destroyed the dwellings of the men of Esgaroth, and I am yet the servant of their Master. I would speak for him and ask whether you have no thought for the sorrow and misery of his people. They aided you in your distress, and in recompense you have thus far brought ruin only, though doubtless undesigned." (Sorry, thought that was important enough to quote directly).

Thorin responded saying that no one had a claim on his treasure, he would help the Men of Laketown in good time, but he would do nothing under threat of force. And he asked what payment would have been given to his kinsmen if the Men had found the Dwarves there slain by Smaug.

Bard answered that was a just question but the dwarves weren't dead and the wealthy might have pity on the less fortunate. And that Thorin had made no answer to his claim that part of the treasure of Dale was in the mountain.

Thorin answered that he would not parley with armed men or with the Elvenking at all. He insisted that the Elves leave before any discussions would be made.

Bard answered that the Elvenking was his friend and had helped the Lakemen. He said he would give the Dwarves time to think about his claim and left.

After a few hours, a messenger of Bard came back and declared, ""In the name of Esgaroth and the Forest, we speak unto Thorin Thrain's son Oakenshield, calling himself the King under the Mountain, and we bid him consider well the claims that have been urged, or be declared our foe. At the least he shall deliver one twelfth portion of the treasure unto Bard, as the dragon-slayer, and as the heir of Girion. From that portion Bard will himself contribute to the aid of Esgaroth; but if Thorin would have the friendship and honour of the lands about, as his sires had of old, then he will give also somewhat of his own for the comfort of the men of the Lake." (Thought that one was important enough to quote too).

Thorin responded by sending an arrow into the messenger's shield.

So the messenger declared the mountain beseiged and left.

Bilbo's parting thought was that the mountain stank of dragon and the cram was sticking in his throat. He seemed thoroughly disgusted.

[NancyBrooke]

Having just reread this chapter two things strike me: the stubborness of Thorin and the forthrightness of Bard.

I have to say, Bard is not much for the diplomacy, is he! I think, if he came so to my door and without so much as a how-de-do and started in on the dividing the spoils I'd be a little miffed myself; no matter how good the suggestions it might have been nice to let Thorin participate in making them.

But Thorin, now ... it's almost hard to understand the hardening of his heart. Tolkien gives very little space to any but the most superficial explanations, but the lines

[ellisk]

I agree that Thorin's situation is very sad. As I commented in the last chapter (I think--the one where they are walking through the mountain to get out the front doors), it would be devastating to see the destruction of those once great halls. Terribly sad.

And I definitely agree that any character whose territory is basically invaded without explanation or even a 'by-your-leave' has every right to defend his own with force if necessary. That is only a sign of good leadership.

Despite that, when I think about this chapter in the context of Tolkien's complete body of works, I think he is making a statement here about the dragon lust that has come over Thorin. Generally speaking, characters in these works that dedicate themselves to riches are not positive characters (ex. Feanor and company--not that I am comparing Thorin to the like of Feanor by any stretch of the imagination. It's just the most obvious example). Gandalf himself says in a future chapter that Thorin is not making a good showing as King Under the Mountain. I think poor Thorin has succumb to the dragon lust and that is clearly shown in his rather disturbing attack on the messenger (who should go unscathed by tradition). He recovers in the end, of course. But for now, it has him in its clutches just as it even tempted Bilbo momentarily when he saw the dragon hoard. It is an interesting internal conflict for Thorin. An interesting 'flaw' that makes him a more compelling character in the end in my mind.

Being an avid bird watcher, I also can not help but comment how much I enjoyed the wise old bird in this chapter. Great touch!