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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: Wedding rituals |
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This may have been covered elsewhere, but I could not find it. I read LACE concerning wedding rituals. It gives great detail in some places, then nothing in others. I have down the fact that they decide usually in childhood who they will marry. My question is, how do they handle the proposal? Do they just up and decide? Does he go to her parents and ask? Do they go together? If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate hearing them. I am kind of strapped for ideas. They need to get married, but I really suck at this. Thank you. 
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ellisk
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Well, here's my interpretation of LaCE:
| Quote: | | The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. |
So Tolkien says in LaCE--but look at some major examples...Elrond married when he would have been almost 3500 years old. Celebrian was probably at least 2000 years old according to UT. Arwen was almost 3000.
| Quote: | | The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. |
No forced marriages. But then there's always Eol. But then most people think he was crazy.
| Quote: | | Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar. It took place in this way. Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace); but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party. |
Most elves got married. Sometimes they knew before they came of age who would be right for them.
The couple needed the permission of the parents.
| Quote: | | In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another. According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings then being molten and not again used for betrothal. Such was the law; but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast. |
The betrothal stood a year after it was approved by the parents. The betrothed exchanged silver rings.
| Quote: | | After the betrothal it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding, when at least one year had passed. Then at a feast, again shared by the two houses, the marriage was celebrated. At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them. For this blessing there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwe by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). The betrothed then received back one from the other their silver rings (and treasured them); but they gave in exchange slender rings of gold, which were worn upon the index of the right hand. |
The wedding itself was after a feast and consisted of joining the hands of the couple and the parents pronouncing some blessings.
| Quote: | | Among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar; and the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride. These gifts were sometimes given before the feast. |
| Quote: | | But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage; they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested, and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but their two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. |
But the 'real' marriage was what we would consider the consummation of the marriage and that's all that was needed to make them legally and permanently married. That of course is simply medieval law--in most european countries, when priests could not be found in all towns, all a couple needed to do was promise each other to be faithful and physically seal the deed.
So...when I do elven marriages, I have the groom ask the bride and then the bride's parents. Then I have them exchange silver rings. On the day of the wedding, I have them exchange gifts with their parents. Then I have a feast, the parents' blessings and the naming of the Valar and the exchange of gold rings.
I have seen lots of fanfics where people have followed the pagan handfasting ceremony which is nice too.
That's my two cents.
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ellisk wrote: | Well, here's my interpretation of LaCE:
The couple needed the permission of the parents.
The betrothal stood a year after it was approved by the parents. The betrothed exchanged silver rings.
So...when I do elven marriages, I have the groom ask the bride and then the bride's parents. Then I have them exchange silver rings. On the day of the wedding, I have them exchange gifts with their parents. Then I have a feast, the parents' blessings and the naming of the Valar and the exchange of gold rings. |
This was more what I was looking for. Unfortunately, my character is very headstrong and tired of waiting for him. Would it be terribly out of custom for her to push him a bit? I have written this three different ways. They all look good, and bad at the same time. I do not mind her being a little pushy, but I do not want him coming off as wussy. It does mention that sometimes they married for reasons other than love, right. I mean, if they care for each other, that can be a start. Does this sound acceptable?
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm, not sure how that happened. Double posting. Who'dathunkit?
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
Duchess of the Independent Resort State of Mexico (est. 10/28/2004)
Purveyor of Buttershots and popcorn.
Last edited by Rous on Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
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Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: Marriage |
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| Quote: | | But the 'real' marriage was what we would consider the consummation of the marriage and that's all that was needed to make them legally and permanently married. That of course is simply medieval law--in most european countries, when priests could not be found in all towns, all a couple needed to do was promise each other to be faithful and physically seal the deed. |
Bravo, Ellisk! What a great, informative post! Right out of LACE!
I find this so sweet--pledging one's life and heart by the act of love. (That is what I did in my fic.)
I like to think the elf-wardens (being a military organisation) might have their own traditions.
Just as military grooms wear uniforms and cut wedding cakes with swords, so there might be a handfasting using a length of hithlain. There might be an arch of swords under which the bride and groom will walk once wedded or perhaps the presence of one's kinsmen-at-arms. (Just as in a modern military wedding.) 
I think in LACE it mentions the Eldar wedding out of love or at least of free consent...
Just my two cents...
--Eruanna
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Rous wrote: | | This was more what I was looking for. |
I rather thought it would be but I am fairly well known for my long winded answers and I hate to disappoint.  Plus, I love this topic.
| Rous wrote: | | Unfortunately, my character is very headstrong and tired of waiting for him. Would it be terribly out of custom for her to push him a bit? |
I certainly don't think so. LaCE also says male and female elves are fairly equal in most things so I think an elven lady would be just as likely to pursue her desire as an elven male. I have that going on in my story.
| Rous wrote: | | It does mention that sometimes they married for reasons other than love, right. I mean, if they care for each other, that can be a start. Does this sound acceptable? |
It says, 'at least free will.' I personally don't think an elf would make an eternal commitment for less than genuine feelings but I also think that part of what makes a story really great is taking something 'canon' and twisting it a bit in a convincing way.
Which story is this discussion for? I want to be sure to read it. As I said, I like the topic.
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Ultima ratio regum (The Last Argument of Kings)--engraved on all French cannons by order of Louis XIV |
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Marriage |
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| Eruanna wrote: | | Quote: | | But the 'real' marriage was what we would consider the consummation of the marriage and that's all that was needed to make them legally and permanently married. That of course is simply medieval law--in most european countries, when priests could not be found in all towns, all a couple needed to do was promise each other to be faithful and physically seal the deed. |
Bravo, Ellisk! What a great, informative post! Right out of LACE!
I find this so sweet--pledging one's life and heart by the act of love. (That is what I did in my fic.) |
Yes, indeed. Agreed and I liked that in your fic. It was very nice.
Another one that does something similar between two elves that I like is Spring Awakenings by Daw. She has one of her OMCs, Eilian, marry his long term love without the complete consent of either of their parents. It is very well done and very in character for the OMC.
| Eruanna wrote: | I like to think the elf-wardens (being a military organisation) might have their own traditions.
Just as military grooms wear uniforms and cut wedding cakes with swords, so there might be a handfasting using a length of hithlain. There might be an arch of swords under which the bride and groom will walk once wedded or perhaps the presence of one's kinsmen-at-arms. (Just as in a modern military wedding.) |
Hmmm, different traditions for the warriors. Now that is an interesting thought. I may just have to think about that a bit and do a little re-writing.
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ellisk wrote: |
| Rous wrote: | | Unfortunately, my character is very headstrong and tired of waiting for him. Would it be terribly out of custom for her to push him a bit? |
I certainly don't think so. LaCE also says male and female elves are fairly equal in most things so I think an elven lady would be just as likely to pursue her desire as an elven male. I have that going on in my story. |
Well, she is a little more pushy than usual; she is only half-elven. I gives me a little leeway with her. But, she knows what she wants and is willing to go after it.
| ellisk wrote: |
| Rous wrote: | | It does mention that sometimes they married for reasons other than love, right. I mean, if they care for each other, that can be a start. Does this sound acceptable? |
It says, 'at least free will.' I personally don't think an elf would make an eternal commitment for less than genuine feelings but I also think that part of what makes a story really great is taking something 'canon' and twisting it a bit in a convincing way. |
She loves him, he just does not he loves her yet. She is noodging him a bit. I am just having trouble with the whole next step thing. Does he go to her father, do they both go? That kind of thing. I have started re-writing it, again. Something has to work.
| ellisk wrote: |
Which story is this discussion for? I want to be sure to read it. As I said, I like the topic. |
It is for Part ll of "A Butterfly Effect". I am in about three, maybe four chapters and I am tired of dragging this out. I have been at it for about a week now. LOL
Thanks for the thoughts. At least I have a direction. I have things in my head for later, but until I get this down, nada.
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Forgot, while I am here. If the families lived in two different realms, would it be possible that they held a ceremony in one and repeated it in the other for family and friends who could not travel? Another big problem.
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
Duchess of the Independent Resort State of Mexico (est. 10/28/2004)
Purveyor of Buttershots and popcorn. |
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Rous wrote: | | Forgot, while I am here. If the families lived in two different realms, would it be possible that they held a ceremony in one and repeated it in the other for family and friends who could not travel? Another big problem. |
Personally, I think the more parties, the better. Medieval tradition would put the wedding in the groom's realm. I can't think of any Tolkien weddings where the interested parties didn't travel but I can't see why that should stop you. Lot's of parties!
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Rous
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Well, they will live in Lórien. She does have some human friends and then there are a couple of hobbits and a dwarf. I think the birthday party was pushing it, although no one objected. Still, it will be hard for most to travel the distance, even supposing they would be allowed access to Lórien. So, I am going with the two ceremonies, unless someone else comes up with a reason why they would not. Thank you, once again.
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
Duchess of the Independent Resort State of Mexico (est. 10/28/2004)
Purveyor of Buttershots and popcorn. |
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
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Location: Dor-Cuarthol, betwixt the Bow and the Helm...
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Rous wrote: | | Forgot, while I am here. If the families lived in two different realms, would it be possible that they held a ceremony in one and repeated it in the other for family and friends who could not travel? Another big problem. |
This is a good consideration. Often this happens in real life. A wedding takes place in the consulate of one country (or wherever) and then another ceremony in the other country.
--Eru
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Rous
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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It beats a whole bunch of people trying to cross the Mountains and plains when there is still unrest. Just makes more sense the other way. I hope this thread can help someone else. I cannot be the only one wondering about this stuff.
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
Duchess of the Independent Resort State of Mexico (est. 10/28/2004)
Purveyor of Buttershots and popcorn. |
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Eruanna
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: Thread |
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| Rous wrote: | | It beats a whole bunch of people trying to cross the Mountains and plains when there is still unrest. Just makes more sense the other way. I hope this thread can help someone else. I cannot be the only one wondering about this stuff. |
I am always intrigued by intercultural or interracial romance and marriage, esp. the elf/mortal relationship.
Not many Aegnor and Andreth stories out there... 
Lots to consider, lots to overcome...being in love is not always enough.
(Love the new Haldir avvie...)
--Eruanna
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ellisk
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rous wrote: | | It beats a whole bunch of people trying to cross the Mountains and plains when there is still unrest. Just makes more sense the other way. I hope this thread can help someone else. I cannot be the only one wondering about this stuff. |
That's the beauty of having all this in a public forum rather than a private conversation with you beta. Lots of people can get ideas.
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