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queenoftheshire

Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 607 Location: Catching Birds with a Pool Skimmer
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: Elves and Emotion |
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Ok. Because elves are, in some ways, devine beings are there any emotions they they dont experience such as envy, arrogence etc? _________________ ||Lex||Yoda||Sooker||
I'm coming for you..
I'm the shadow in the corner of the room.
I'm the reason you feel sick in the morning.
I'm the panic attack, at the end of the day.
I loved you.
And now you're gone. |
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BittenBuggy

Joined: 27 Dec 2003 Posts: 2108 Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, as much as we would like to think of them as 'perfect,' elves suffer many of the same character flaws as the race of men.
This is not depicted very well in The Lord of the Rings. The Silmarillion on the other hand gives you a very clear view on Elvish emotion and emotional capability.
One of the best examples I can think of (not to mention the most memorable) is that of Feanor. He was the creator of the three Silmarils and is responsible in a way for all the evil that befalls Middle earth. This was due entirely to his arrogance. In the Silmarils, the light of the Trees were captured and when the trees were destroyed, Varda asked Feanor for one of the Silmarils, but he refused to part with them.
There are other examples, but it's 11:01 and I'm sleepy! I'm sure Scribe will be in here eventually to give you a better understanding. _________________ -The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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PoweroftheBook
Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Posts: 80 Location: Appalachin Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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I would have to say that it depends on the Elf in question. On one hand, you have the wise and kind Elrond, Arwen, Legolas, Glorfindel (as far as we know). On the other hand, you have Feanor, Eol, Maeglin, and yes, even Galadriel.
Feanor loved the works of his own hand, the Silmarils, far too much, and was driven to commit the first slaying of an Elf by another Elf to obtain it, and was also arguably a bit of a whiny brat. Maeglin tried to carry off his already-married cousin and sold out the entire city of Gondolin to Morgoth's forces to do so. Feanor's seven sons lived out their lives killing anyone who might be harboring the Silmarils, and that includes female Elves and elflings. Thingol may have married a Maia and fathered Luthien, but he locked Luthien up in a treehouse and sent her beloved Beren off on a quest of certain death to prevent Luthien choosing mortality. Eol killed his wife while trying to kill his son (who was, incidentally, Maeglin.)
In short, Elves are not immune to less than noble feelings or actions, a good reason to read the Silmarillion. They are prey to lust, greed, arrogance, stupidity. It is probably important to note that this is more of the exception, rather than the rule for each 'normal' Elf.
Galadriel may have been wise and noble, but she defied the will of the Valar and was exiled for millienia from Valinor, and she also was said to have sought out the One Ring after the Last Alliance to claim it as her own. Indis, the second wife of Finwe (the only doubly-married Elf known to canon) was more than likely lusting after Finwe while his first wife was still alive. Celebrimbor (my favorite Elf!) was an incredible craftsman and a good leader, yet his weakness and foolishness in taking on blind faith the plans of Annatar (Sauron), and his unrequited desire for Galadriel led to the destruction of Ost-in-Edhil, and the forging of all of the Rings, which led to the whole Ringwar mess. Some Elves even lead on other Elves when they themselves are married - see Finduilas (not the mother of Boromir and Faramir!)
In short, a normal Elf may go through periods of his or her lifetime where they engage in or feel these less than noble emotions, the important thing is that they feel totally justified in this emotion or action while it's going on.
Divine?
Just look at movie-Legolas.
Perfect?
Even he gets into a petty snit with Gimli beside the walls of Moria.
Hope this helps!
The Power of the Book  |
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queenoftheshire

Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 607 Location: Catching Birds with a Pool Skimmer
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, that does help...A lot. I don't have much expertice with the race of elves so I tend to ask a lot about them. Luckily my best friend, and fellow LOTR addict is genius on the subject  _________________ ||Lex||Yoda||Sooker||
I'm coming for you..
I'm the shadow in the corner of the room.
I'm the reason you feel sick in the morning.
I'm the panic attack, at the end of the day.
I loved you.
And now you're gone. |
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queenoftheshire

Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 607 Location: Catching Birds with a Pool Skimmer
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Oh just to clue you in, I'm mostly thinking of Legolas and Arwen. I don't know if that makes any difference _________________ ||Lex||Yoda||Sooker||
I'm coming for you..
I'm the shadow in the corner of the room.
I'm the reason you feel sick in the morning.
I'm the panic attack, at the end of the day.
I loved you.
And now you're gone. |
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Hathor

Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 346 Location: Lancashire, England
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| queenoftheshire wrote: | | Oh just to clue you in, I'm mostly thinking of Legolas and Arwen. I don't know if that makes any difference |
Legolas is a bit of an enigma. We actually know very little of him. He's strong and brave, and he fights well. He's a warrior. It's what he does, bascially. Yet at the same time, he's got a certain childlike side that we don't see in very many other Elves. He turns around and tries to ride to the Ents in TTT, and he plays a game in Helm's Deep. Now, do you really see the millenia old Elrond doing that? He's loyal to Thranduil ("should my Lord permit it") and he would follow Aragorn to the end, as he would to Gimli, who is his friend. In that sense, Legolas is different to other Elves- they just don't do friendship with the Dwarves!
Arwen shares some similiar qualities, yet she belies a much older side than Legolas ever does. Perhap's she endured more general angst in her life - Elrond forbids her from marrying Aragorn until he becomes King of Gondor and Arnor, and that just doesn't look like it's about to happen. Plus, her mother Celebrian was taken by orcs and sailed away to Valinor, hence the fact Arwen spent a lot of time living with Galadriel. Yet she's incredibly loyal, and loving.
Both feel the 'negative' emotions. I once read a stroy involving Legolas bewailing the fact he's a homicidal maniac. Humourous yes, but at the same time a grain of truth. He can be arrogant (a quality I feel many Elves actually have, in a way) and feels anger. The same goes to Arwen. They still feel and have the same emotions.
It's like any character in any story. They all have the same emotions- but different reactions. And that is where it gets interesting. _________________ ~Hathor~
Owner of 'Just Another Hole' and Lindir, The Pretty Noldo Totty
Postatem obscuri lateris nescitis... |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 665 Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yet at the same time, he's got a certain childlike side that we don't see in very many other Elves. |
What about Legolas' refusal to be blindfolded in Lothlorien? When I read that the only thought in my mind was to give both Gimli and Legolas a spanking ... I found their attitudes quite immature, although pride/arrogance might have had a lot to do with it.
To put it in Aragorn's words (whom I think deserved a pedestal after putting up with those two!): "a plague on the stiff necks of the Elves!" ... and he should know after living with elves for most of his life (maybe he was even hinting at his father-in-law-to-be !).
Maria |
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Roisin

Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 449 Location: U.S.A.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:19 am Post subject: |
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I think Elves pride themselves on being in control of their emotions, but that doesn't mean they don't have the emotions, nor does it mean that the control is always there.
I would say the most common failing among Elves is arrogance. You see this in the book when Legolas whinges about being blindfolded to go into Lorien, and you see it in the movie when Haldir doesn't want to let the Fellowship into Lorien.
Then there's the movie moment where Legolas nearly gelds poor Gimli to win their little competition after Helm's Deep.
Roisin |
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Moralanqua

Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 1051 Location: Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Phew! Leggy gelding Gimli, Leggy and Giimli getting a spanking>? You girls are getting them mental images going into overdrive!
I love reading through The Silm and HOME 10 to get answers like these.
To sum up - i think its always a good idea to keep the word 'extreme' in your mind when writing elven emotion. They seem to feel all forms of emotion in the strongest sense.
Pride, anger, jealousy and envy - see Eol, Feanor and Aegnor
Passion - Celeborn and Galadriel (cause they was 'lovers' b4 marrying)
Joy - erm... Legolas in Fangorn? Legolas at Nimrodel, Leggy...
Curiousity, commitment and loyalty - Finrod Felagund (see the debate of Finrod and Andreth Home 10)
Overall, they must live a long long time and to feel the sort of emotion that normal mortals do, must be very tedious and make them want to up sticks and fade. I think they get surges of emotion, they feel things 100x more to make their existance more profound.
I use this to explain movie leggy - Hes confused and sad at the deaths, hes angry in HD, he's cheeky and proud with Gimli and their games, hes passionate and loyal to Strider and he shows rage when faced with Orcs!
ok - will stop now.... sorry! _________________ I am no longer posting on the Forums. If you need me, I am lurking in the archives, reading and reviewing. You can also catch me at Demented Indigo! |
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NancyBrooke Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 160 Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Elves and Emotion |
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| queenoftheshire wrote: | | Ok. Because elves are, in some ways, devine beings are there any emotions they they dont experience such as envy, arrogence etc? |
I'd be careful with that word 'devine'; just because Elves are, for all intents and purposes, immortal (assuming no untimely collisions with swords, e.g.) they shouldn't be thought god-like. They have no supernatural powers, aren't worshipped, can't change destinies, etc. They are creatures of nature; be careful not to think of them as more than they are.
And even gods are often depicted as overly emotional, in Tolkien and without. |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Posts: 665 Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And even gods are often depicted as overly emotional, in Tolkien and without. |
I totally agree with you! You only need to read "The Iliad" to get a taste of how whimsical and emotional and arrogant and utterly unfair Gods can be! After seing the Greek deities in action, suddenly being human doesn't seem so bad !
Maria |
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queenoftheshire

Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 607 Location: Catching Birds with a Pool Skimmer
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I probably worded that in the wrong way, but elves in alot of ways are different from the other races, and not just the fact that they are immortal as everyone should know.
Just a thought:
Did anyone else notice the transformation of Legolas in FOTR(the movie)? I was watching it for the millionth time and noticed how much he changes in just (And of course I'm estimating here) the hour and a half we see him during the Fellowship. I mean it seems he has such an attitude(arrogant princly type attitude?) during his time in Rivendell and before the Mines of Moria. Especially in the EE where Gandalf is talking about how dwarves would often forget where the entrance to their mines were and Legolas says "Why doesn't that surprise me?" And of course that has alot to do with the dwarves and elves feuding. I think after he sees death for the first time it really changes him. I really would have liked if instead of (At least it seemed like this to me.) first Gimli and Legolas hate each other to all of a sudden in TTT they're best friends, instead had gradually became friends it would have been better. Actually the EE's do actually portray that more. So either Gandalf falling really had an effect of him, or Legsy had a drastic mood swing.  _________________ ||Lex||Yoda||Sooker||
I'm coming for you..
I'm the shadow in the corner of the room.
I'm the reason you feel sick in the morning.
I'm the panic attack, at the end of the day.
I loved you.
And now you're gone. |
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NancyBrooke Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 160 Location: In a motel 6 by the airport
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| queenoftheshire wrote: | I think after he sees death for the first time it really changes him. So either Gandalf falling really had an effect of him, or Legsy had a drastic mood swing.  |
Yes, actually, I have heard Orlando B. talk about that very thing (perhaps in the FOTREEDVD cast soundtrack thingy) ... that Elves and Legolas in specific, don't really understand death since they rarely experience it. Gandalf's falling could be the first time Legolas ever sees a friend die.
Plot bunny anyone? |
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JennnLee

Joined: 03 Nov 2003 Posts: 123 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Gandalf's falling could be the first time Legolas ever sees a friend die.
Plot bunny anyone? |
Not to be a shameless self-promoter (oh who am I kidding? Of course I am!), but I played with a similar thought in "Something That Should Not Be..." only I used the moment in TTT when Legolas thought Aragorn had fallen. It plays on events from "Eternally," written by Ellbee and me, and I really enjoyed exploring an elf's thoughts on death. I found it very interesting... |
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queenoftheshire

Joined: 03 Dec 2003 Posts: 607 Location: Catching Birds with a Pool Skimmer
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I think Kate also did this situation after Legolas thinks Pippin is dead _________________ ||Lex||Yoda||Sooker||
I'm coming for you..
I'm the shadow in the corner of the room.
I'm the reason you feel sick in the morning.
I'm the panic attack, at the end of the day.
I loved you.
And now you're gone. |
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