[NancyBrooke]

(I thought I'd asked this elsewhere but can't find the thread ...)

What, if anything, do we think the late Third Age Stewards knew of the men to the north? Or, to ask this more specifically, as Boromir travels North toward Rivendell, does he think he's travelling into nowhereland and nobodyville?

Text-supported ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Rhapsody]

Hey Nancy,

Leaward directed me here. I already gave her some information regarding your question, so I am not sure what you have exchanged. Drop me a PM or e-mail so that I can help you further!

Rhapsody

[GypsieRose]

Gondor had been cut off from its northern neighbors for a long time, so I doubt they had much in the way of details. The people of Minas Tirith considered hobbits to be creatures out of legend, after all. I think they must have suspected that some descendants of the nothern Dúnedain would still be living in the former kingdom of Arnor. However, I don't see how they could know how many there were, or how they lived, or what other Men lived with them.

They do seem to have retained some memory of the northern Elves, since Denethor was able to identify Imladris as the home of Elrond.

I would imagine Boromir's attitude on traveling north was that he was going into the Unknown. I wouldn't be too surprised if he expected the Men to be living in caves or something like that.

--Rose

[NancyBrooke]

[Rhapsody]

Nancy,

I hope to come back with more this evening, mainly with Gondorian history!! Another clue on what Denethor might have known of the North is that shortly after he became Steward: he started to use the palantir. I believe first as gathering information purposes. Interesting fact is that besides the palantiri of Sauron and Saruman, the other remaining one was at the Tower Hills... The Shire. The Dunedain kept their watch over the Shire and there as well.

Much too hasty,

Rhapsody

[NancyBrooke]

Hey, Rhap -
I'm asking this here rather than reply to your e-mail because if others are as ignorant as I it will be generally useful:

[Rhapsody]

I believe in the appendices. Yeps

From the appendices A: I THE NÚMENOREAN KINGS and then:

The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain
In Arthedain the line of Isildur was maintained and endured, but the line soon perished in Cardolan and Rhudaur. There was often strife between the kingdoms, which hastened the waning of the Dúnedain. The chief matter of debate was the possession of the Weather Hills and the land westward towards Bree. Both Rhudaur and Cardolan desired to possess Amon Sûl (Weathertop), which stood on the borders of their realms; for the Tower of Amon Sûl held the chief Palantír of the North, and the other two were both in the keeping of Arthedain.

In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar. Argeleb therefore fortified the Weather Hills; but he was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar.

After Arvedui the North-kingdom ended, for the Dúnedain were now few and all the peoples of Eriador diminished. Yet the line of the kings was continued by the Chieftains of the Dúnedain, of whom Aranarth son of Arvedui was the first. Arahael his son was fostered in Rivendell, and so were all the sons of the chieftains after him; and there also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the ring of Barahir, the shards of Narsil, the star of Elendil, and the sceptre of Annúminas.

GONDOR AND THE HEIRS OF ANÁRION

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North-kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur, and as the husband of Fíriel, only surviving child of Ondoher. The claim was rejected. In this Pelendur, the Steward of King Ondoher, played the chief part.
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."


The Stewards
'After her death Denethor became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. None of the Stewards had dared to do this, nor even the kings Eärnil and Eärnur, after the fall of Minas Ithil when the palantír of Isildur came into the hands of the Enemy; for the Stone of Minas Tirith was the palantír of Anárion, most close in accord with the one that Sauron possessed.
'In this way Denethor gained his great knowledge of things that passed in his realm, and far beyond his borders, at which men marvelled; but he bought the knowledge dearly, being aged before his time by his contest with the will of Sauron. Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of the Barad-dûr, and mistrusted all others who resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone.

Ecthelion II died in 2984, Finduilas died in 2988.

Btw, the sources I mainly used in the e-mail (from the top of my head):

Appendix A: "The Numenorean kings: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain"and "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion: The Stewards
The History of Middle-earth, vol. XII, The Peoples of Middle-earth: "The Appendix on Languages," "The Heirs of Elendil," genealogical chart of the Princes of Dol Amroth
Appendix A: "The Realms in Exile," p 319; "The Stewards
The History of Middle-earth, vol. V, The Lost Road and Other Writings
The History of Middle-earth, vol. XI, The War of the Jewels: "Maeglin"

[Rhapsody]

I need to see who guarded the towerhills during the trilogy.. I think either elves or dunedain.

[GypsieRose]

[Rhapsody]

I don't recall such a thing (Gildorion using the palantir in FOTR).

Either way. It is about knowledge and why Pelendur, the first Steward, took such a firm position regarding the line of Isildur and the Dunedain of the North. It also explains Denethor reaction to Gandalf, Boromir's behaviour at Rivendell and so on.

It is interesting to know that the first chieftain was a child coming from a Northern and a Southern Dunedain. It is also good to know why the Southern Dunedain have no high praise of their Nothern kinsmen. Isildur relequished the claim to the throne of Gondor back then (after the War of the Last Alliance), the first kin-strive was all about a numenorean marrying someone from the North and from lesser blood..

I quote from my e-mail to Nancy:

Firiel continued the line of Anarion from Telumehtar's first son Narmacil and joined it to the line of Isildur when she married King Arvedui. Her older son, Aranarth, became first Chieftain of the Northern Dunedain.

Why none fight this decision you need to understand what has happened before.

The line of Anárion seemed to have failed, and Gondor was not willing to risk to another Kin-strife, which would have destroyed it (Gondor was already weak by the plagues, internal turmoil and so on). Whenever there was a new Steward, he would swear an oath to yield rule of Gondor back to the King, in essence only an heir of Isildur, if he should ever return. In Gondor there was no one who could claim descent from Isildur in direct line, and the northern line of Arnor seemingly had disappeared, so this oath was not considered seriously in Gondor.

But still, I would fire the Lore Master if he didn't taught the Stewards & succeeding sons this. I don't see Denethor swearing an Oath he does not fully understand. But would he act upon it? That is a different matter, but did they know of it (which was the initial question passed onto me). Yes. Otherwise it is bad intelligence and not passing on lore gathered over so many ages.

If this all helps Nancy, well then I am happy.

[GypsieRose]

[NancyBrooke]

Thanks, everyone, for your entertaining my prickly little niggles, you all have been of great help. Now I'll know what to say someday when I finally post my story and I start getting the pointed canonical e-mails I am probably needlessly anticipating ... I just figure if it makes me wonder, someone else will wonder, too.

Sounds like Boromir on his trip would have expected no outside help and looked for no kindred culture North of the Greyflood. He probably imagined himself just toughing it out alone; bummer about losing that horse ...

This conversation certainly has raised interesting questions about Denethor ... he is a slippery one! I will always wonder what he told his sons, how much and when: did they know about the Palantir at all? did they know he was usuing it? Did they know about the Northern Dunedain? - Did D know that was where Aragorn/Thorongil was from? Were B&F told that there was a real - albeit 'illegal' challenger extant from the line of Isildur?

It is hard to imagine Denethor would ever let Boromir become Steward still ignorant of so many things ... what is it about this family? they all think they're never going to do, don't have to tell each other things, don't have to marry and have children ... jeez.

Again, thanks all. I think I have my original question answered and plot bunnies to last me ages.

NB


PS: I was wondering if the Palantir of the North hadn't gone into Cirdan's keeping since it departed on the ship with Bilbo and Frodo etc. Who knows?

[Rhapsody]

[GypsieRose]

Rhapsody,

Thanks for your explanation. I was just confused at why these other topics were coming in. I'll keep my ankles covered as you suggest!

[NancyBrooke]

All good stuff ... and so many grey areas! Very exciting for fic writing ...