[SpaceWeavil]

I am sure I saw a reference somewhere to when Theoden 'fell ill', i.e came under Wormtongue's influence, but I have trawled through the appendices and my reference books and now can't find it.

So does anyone know when Theoden started to fall under this influence or has anyone seen this written somewhere? I'm hoping someone else has seen this because otherwise I'm going mad.

thanks in advance
SW

[AngmarofCarnDum]

SpaceWeavil, we don't want you to go mad, so perhaps this will help prevent that from happening.

"The chief obstacles to an easy conquest of Rohan by Saruman were Théodred and Éomer: they were vigorous men, devoted to the King, and high in his affections, as his only son and his sister-son; and they did all that they could do to thwart the influence over him that Gríma gained when the King's health began to fail. This occurred early in the year 3014, when Théoden was sixty-six; his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma. In any case Théoden's sense of weakness and dependence on Gríma was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions." - "The Battle of the Fords of Isen," Unfinished Tales, p. 355

[SpaceWeavil]

[KhazarKhum]

I've always wondered if Grima became more active after the death of Theoden's wife. He might have been unable to get far until she died.

[AngmarofCarnDum]

Elfhild, the wife of Théoden, died in childbirth in 2978 ("The House of Eorl", Return of the King, p. 351). She would have been dead for 36 years by the time Théoden's health started to decline and Gríma became more powerful. Perhaps had she been around, Gríma would have found ways to ensnare her, too. It is an interesting conjecture, though.

[KhazarKhum]

I didn't realize that she had been dead that long.

That is one of the things that has always bugged me about ME--how casually the royalty et al are about inheritance.

In a regular Kingdom, she would have been replaced ASAP, since Theodred is an only child. Even with Eomer that's a strong risk for the kingdom.

Aragorn milling around without heirs is another Bad Idea. So is the situation with Boromir & Faramir.

[AngmarofCarnDum]

It seemed to be very uncommon for Tolkien's characters to remarry, but yet some did, such as Finwë in the Silmarillion.

Túrin the Steward of Gondor (2165-2278) also remarried. We are told that in the "Roll of the Stewards of Gondor that ruled the realm and city between the going of Eärnur and the coming of Elessar," The Heirs of Elendil, The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 204, Túrin "wedded twice and had several children (a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."

Boromir apparently preferred hunting and fighting to marriage; Aragorn had to wait a long time to marry; and Faramir, who knows.

In all those thirty-six years as a widower, it would seem that some advisor might suggest the advantages in remarrying, but the tale is silent and we will never know why. It seems logical they would, or Théoden would have the idea himself. Too much grief, perhaps?[/u]

[NancyBrooke]

[KhazarKhum]

Ummm, Nancy, Tolkien's father died and his mother never remarried.

But there's lots of Nuzguls in that plot.

[NancyBrooke]

[KhazarKhum]

There *was* something of a distaste for remarriage in Victorian times; a man whose wife died was apparently supposed to mourn her forever. This may have been an American thing. But Teddy Roosevelt, for example, remarried despite the prevailing attitude.

But for Royalty, as usual, the rules are somewhat different.

I can think of three examples of Royals who didn't remarry: Victoria, Prince Rainier, and Louis XIV.

Victoria was devastated by Albert's death. Ranier was also severely affected by Grace's loss. In their cases, grief seems to be the driving factor.

Louis XIV, however, never
officially remarried. He technically remained eligible for most of his adult life. However, he did marry his longtime girlfriend, Mme de Maintenon, in secret. The reasons for this are far too complicated to go into here, but at least one of the factors seems to have been keeping the possibility of a marriage to the King on the table as a negotiating point.

Now, I don't think Denethor was that much of a political genius, but Theoden could have been. He could very well have had a long-term "friendship" with a lady from Rohan.

[Eyborg]

You mean, like a concubine? It would actually be a very interesting thing to explore in a fanfic, if Théoden or Denethor kept concubines after their wives' death...

[Shanalir]

Continuing that thought..... It would really be interesting if you explore the different possibilities. They gradually overcame their grief enough to form a relationship for comfort with a widow; they sought forgetfullness from their grief in another woman's arms, or if you wanted to go a different route, their marriage was loveless, and they ersumed their tomcatting after their wife was out of the way. (In addition to keeping the discreet mistress they had during their marriage.) Lots of possibilities there.

[AngmarofCarnDum]

A lot of things can happen in 36 years and possibly they did. The field of conjecture is open.

[KhazarKhum]

Yes, I am saying mistress/concubine. Mme de Maintenon was the Official Royal Mistress of Louis XIV. "Offical Mistress" was something of a title & office in France.

Another factor in the examples I used is that all three had plenty of heirs walking around, so the succession was not an issue.

But that isn't the case here. What was Aragorn going to do if Arwen went West? Did he have a backup plan? He seems to have assumed that she would marry him--but that was by no means assured. Eowyn had already gone to Faramir; where would Aragorn look for a wife?