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Scribe
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Betelgeuse
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 Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:26 pm Post subject: Concerning Mary Sues - Topic initiated by Ariel |
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This is a post that Ariel had placed in the News Items, which I thought was better suited as a topic of its own.
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I am already having trouble getting anyone on this site to read (or maybe they are reading but just not reviewing) my fics... I 'think' it has to do with the fact that they are hobbit centric and the vast majority of readers and writers here just don't think of hobbits as sexy. Nothing I can do about that, I suppose, except write as well as I can and hope people can see past the height thing and the hair on the feet. LOL!
Anyway, there was a point to my comment, and that was that I am worried that putting even good OCs into a separate catagory is going to quite simply bury them to the point that no one will read any of them (even the good ones). I am glad you are going to leave already posted 'Sues' where they are (I think I put all of mine in as AUs anyway) but I do think you should have the ability/right/due to put fics you consider to be less than stellar into a separate catagory. I have seen too many beautiful fics pass by with no more than a smattering of reviews to trust that to be a good judge of a fic's quality.
Ariel
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Scribe
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Betelgeuse
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Ariel,
I apologise for the lack of reviews but I would disagree in saying your fics aren't being read. Perhaps we do have some lazy readers but the truth is, I noted that all your stories have substantial hits. The numbers are 79, 110, 42, 169 and I didn't even check all of them. Even if there are no reviews, people are still looking at your work and those of you who have, please review because Ariel's view is probably not unique.
I have encouraged reviews as much as I can but for me the hits to the page are just as telling. So don't think you're being ignored because you write hobbit centric fics, I can tell you that I for one have a look at them, really liked Massage  by the way and if I didn't review, I shall go off immediately and begin a course of self flagellation.
As for the Femme Fatale catergory, it is not a Mary Sue category, my story Easterling sure as hell isn't one as I have been told by some of the people on PPC (Protectors of the Plot Continuum) and that as far as the writer of an OFC is concerned, is a pretty good recommendation. I created the category for exactly the opposite reason of sticking in bad writing in one place.
My dear, bad writing doesn't get stuck anywhere on this archive. It just doesn't make it.
Just because I'm fairly relaxed in my admin duties, doesn't mean I'm not watching the content of the archive and if I see one 'two girls fall out of a closet into Middle earth saying KEWL and teaching Eowyn the finer points of modern feminism, even though they are ridiculously beautiful and spend half the fic charming the men of Helm's Deep', they are SO OUT OF HERE.
I created the Femme Fatale category to give the OFC's a fair shake. So that people who read those stories will judge them on their own merits. Honestly, you do not want someone who's first impression of your summary is - great another MS reading the whole thing. Their mind is already made up. However, those going into the Femme Fatale category have no preconceived notions, they know what they're reading and they're likely to post a review that's based on the fics merits. In fact, some of the stories that appear on the Femme Fatale category are pretty damn good in my opinion.
Am I making sense?
Anyone else want to weigh on this? |
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Ariel
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are making sense - but I hope the FF catagory doesn't begin to become analogous to the MS catagory in some people's minds. It takes a lot of guts for a person to post a story... even that 14 year old MS writer...
And thank you also for the comment about reviews. I realized the stories were getting read but I also noticed that there are very few hobbit writers here and figured that was as likely a reason as anything!  I know I am more likely to review hobbit stuff myself. The reason I mentioned it was there was a post on the yahoo group suggesting rating stories based on reviews. I got a bit alarmed at that. I wanted to make sure I got my two cents stating that reviews aren't the only indication of a good story!
Ariel |
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Scribe
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Betelgeuse
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ariel wrote: | I think you are making sense - but I hope the FF catagory doesn't begin to become analogous to the MS catagory in some people's minds. It takes a lot of guts for a person to post a story... even that 14 year old MS writer...
Ariel |
I'm aware of that which is why I'm working hard at this moment to establish a non-fiction site. I've contacted a few authors who have written interesting how to articles. I'm hoping these will give newbies, like the 14 year old MS writer the necessary education to improve her craft, if she is at all serious about it and the forum is another place where questions can be asked and answered by the more experienced of us.
While there is a certain quality I demand for this archive, myself and Dolarabee are very open minded on what can be posted here. However, if I do not impose restrictions, you might as well be going to ff.net because after awhile there simply will not be any difference in its mediocrity.
| Ariel wrote: |
And thank you also for the comment about reviews. I realized the stories were getting read but I also noticed that there are very few hobbit writers here and figured that was as likely a reason as anything! I know I am more likely to review hobbit stuff myself. The reason I mentioned it was there was a post on the yahoo group suggesting rating stories based on reviews. I got a bit alarmed at that. I wanted to make sure I got my two cents stating that reviews aren't the only indication of a good story!
Ariel |
I'm glad, I must have missed that post but rest assured ratings will NEVER be based on reviews. Stories should be appreciated because they are good not because they are popular. That kind of rating means any twit and her two thousand friends can win a writing award. No, no, none of that here. |
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Robbie
Site Admin
Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 1100
Location: Sydney, Australia.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Scribe wrote: | | I'm glad, I must have missed that post but rest assured ratings will NEVER be based on reviews. |
Stories are rated by:
- average vote (for 4 or more votes). You can't vote for your own story, or vote twice for the same story to make it fairer.
- most recommendations (probably the best as each user can only recommend 10 stories). You can't recommend your own story, but you can recommend the same story twice... hmmm... not for long though.
- hits (number of times the first chapter of a story is looked at by any user. With the latest release this weekend, only one hit per visit counts so new stories will have much lower "hits" than the old stories for a while, until things even out a bit. This was added to stop vain authors clicking refesh 200 times to boost their poularity, not that anyone would do that  )
Those have all been added and, hopefully, allow you to choose the stories that are generally considered the best.
Story of the day (which is not working yet) is a bit of harmless fun - one random story selected per day - nothing to do with rankings/hits/votes/wads of cash in envelopes at all.
But if you want to supply wads of cash in envelopes, hey, anything can be arranged 
_________________
Rob
www.crackingegg.com |
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Ellbee
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 172
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Frankly, I don't know if I'd worry too much at all about which category things are in. Of course, other people may do it differently, but I have found the easiest way to check on the stories is just go to All Stories, or check the latest additions or latest edits. I really don't even notice what category things have gone in.
As for reviews, it may just be that people are not that used to reviewing here, including me. I haven't reviewed nearly all the stories I've read and liked (yet) simply because I'm usually not logged on. That's something I'll have to work on correcting.
But speaking for myself, I love the Hobbit smut.
-Ell |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm trying to go through and read and review all of the stories. However, I have read a couple of stories that I haven't left reviews on, going on the principle that if you can't say something nice, it's best to say nothing at all. Note: I have not read any of your stories yet, Ariel! Sorry! But a friend specifically recommended Fingertips, so that's high on my to-do list. |
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Maram68
Challenge Admin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 535
Location: West from East
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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I must confess, that since I am going through a quite hard writer's blues/block, self esteem-down phase, I feel a bit like Ariel.
Well i've been lucky to get some great ratings for my fic and I am extremeley grateful for the many hits, but a couple of reviews wouldn't hurt.
I will try to review as well ... since I know that it is also important to my fellow writers ... and yeah, I am unhappy that I can only recommend 10 stories, there so many great ones out there ...
As to the Mary Sue topic, no comment. I still don't know ... and prefer not to find out right now if my heroine is a MS.
Still kudos for a great site, Scribe and Dolarabee .... and for making a great effort to create a fair environment, even for non tolkienists like myself.
Claudia |
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gariotin
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Maram/Claudia:
(Since this is a new site, I'm note sure what the rules are for replies, so forgive this if it is too directed at one person)
I am not a writer, but I am drawn to this site as an avid, but discerning reader. This site appeals to me, as I think the quality of the writing is better than most - and, of course, the het focus. I read constantly, but not best sellers. My faves are the classics and more offbeat fiction. I am sorry y are struggling w/ a bloc and doubting yourself - "Adversity" is a GREAT story, and as I said in my mini-review, I cannot understand why people are hitting on it and not giving you feedback!
I think you have created a believable, dynamic character in Cyrene (who cares if she's MS?) and the cultural and psychological clashes she undergoes in the story are great. I loved the interaction w/her mom - the sister was a little too cartooney bad-girl, but loved the image of this strong leader of a mother who kept her sensuality treasured from her past. Don't let the lack of reviews get you down - this is an interesting engaging story and I check for new chapters every day! |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| gariotin wrote: | | this is an interesting engaging story and I check for new chapters every day! |
Hmm, guess that means this little beta should get off her hiney and check some commas.
Also on this topic... perhaps those of us who write OFCs could form a little support society where we could suggest how to un-Sue some of our characters. I'm currently working on a rewrite of a long fic that might have had Sue elements. I'm trying to make it a better story. Naturally, I don't see the Sue in my character (who does?), but I'd love for folks to give me suggestions on how to make her (and, by extension, the story) less stereotypical.
This wouldn't be as thorough as a beta... more like a Sue-check. |
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gariotin
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| HA - sorry, Viv! That's why I'm a reader, not a writer! |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Maram68 wrote: | | .... and for making a great effort to create a fair environment, even for non tolkienists like myself. |
Pffft. I happen to know that you have done research out the wazoo. And it shows.
Keeping canon in mind does not mean everyone needs to memorize the names of the seven sons of Feanor and count the generations from Finwe to Arwen. Being Tolkienist means that you write the characters in-character and have a general grasp on geography and culture. And your Gimli and Eowyn still impress the hoohah out of me. |
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Scribe
Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Betelgeuse
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Viv"] | Maram68 wrote: | | .... and for making a great effort to create a fair environment, even for non tolkienists like myself. |
As a personal rule, I follow canon as much as I can but I don't believe it is the end all and be all of everything. If we wish to be technical about it, then nothing in fandom would be canon, since none of it is the original author's work, being the Professor.
I like sticking to my facts but I also like to push the envelope. In the instance of Gimli and Legolas having spouses in my stories, I believe I am keeping in canon because it says that Leggy and Gimli left for the Undying Lands 120 years after the events of the Ring. That's a hundred and twenty years of possibility where they could have married, lost their spouses and stil travelled the last grey ship to Valinor as stated by Tolkien.
I have categories that will keep the canon people happy and for those who want to go a completely different angle. Great story telling should not be bound by too many rules and that will always be the policy on this archive in regard to the issue of canon. |
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Ariel
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | ... perhaps those of us who write OFCs could form a little support society where we could suggest how to un-Sue some of our characters. |
I'd be willing to help with this. I have been told I write some of the least Mary Suelike Mary Sues out there... and since I have been writing fanfic for about 30 years I have learned a thing or two about OCs along the way. I think the thing you have to do first is fall out of love with your OC... step back from her/him and see her/him VERY critically. Humble her, give her a reality check... make her far less lucky. Imagine her as someone another author had written - would you still like her? Would she irritate you?
That will get you going for a start.
Ariel |
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Roisin
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 449
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:19 am Post subject: |
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One thing I think LOTR fanfic writers run up against is that if you want to pair up Legolas with a woman, you pretty much have to invent an OC or get him together with Eowyn. Personally I like that combination, but to stay true to canon it always has to end unhappily. 
So you're left with the dreaded "Mary Sue" monster. I personally don't refer to a OC-F as a Mary Sue unless she shows certain characteristics, like being invincible, having everyone fall in love and behave out of character, etc. LOL. Or if she uses modern slang.
CAM |
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