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melissaofaharon
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Arkansas
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: languages and question |
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Ok,so my first little thought was..oooo..an idea. Not being one of these who can write with no information, my question is, what is the bare minimum I should know about the whole realm of Middle Earth (and people) in general before I can write? I only ask because I hate to write and then it is wrong,etc. I don't mind research, but I don't want to be researching ten years from now. LOL *Gasp* No, I have not read the books. Forgive me. I slipped into here from the movies.
Also, are there any good sites for learning Elvish or any of the other languages? I have a weird knack for them. And it will help on character development.
Let me know if anyone has any suggestions, helpful comments, or whatever. Thanks in advance.
Melly |
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Sirannon
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 67
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:55 am Post subject: |
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You could start by reading some of the posts in this forum:
http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=10
Lots of good advice in there.
That you haven't read the books isn't nessecarily a problem, just remember to mark your story as based on movie-verse.
Sirannon
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Yavanie
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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And since you don't mind the research part, I'll tell you there are some very knowledgeable people here. NO such thing as a stupid question. Ask and some one is sure to point you to the appropriate source to ferret out your answeres. And once upon a time none of us had read the books either.
YOu can delve as deeply as you like - movies only, the original trilogy plus the Hobbit or any bit of info out of the 10+? volumes of HoME (History of Middle Earth), UT (Unfinished Tales), Sil (The Silmarillion) and there are others with equally obscrue abbreviations - LotR (Lord of the Rings) and from there you can figure out - FotR (Fellowship), TTT (The Two Towers), RotK (Return of the King).
Like I said, no such thing as a dumb question. The opportunity is here to work with what you know and then research to the Nth degree if you so desire. The wonderful stories here run the gamut!
You will also find a wealth of encouragement in writing and expressing yourself here. And if you have a question, do please ask. Someone else is probably wondering the same thing.
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 853
Location: Not here, not there, not anywhere
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: languages and question |
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| melissaofaharon wrote: | Ok,so my first little thought was..oooo..an idea. Not being one of these who can write with no information, my question is, what is the bare minimum I should know about the whole realm of Middle Earth (and people) in general before I can write? I only ask because I hate to write and then it is wrong,etc. I don't mind research, but I don't want to be researching ten years from now. LOL *Gasp* No, I have not read the books. Forgive me. I slipped into here from the movies.
Also, are there any good sites for learning Elvish or any of the other languages? I have a weird knack for them. And it will help on character development.
Let me know if anyone has any suggestions, helpful comments, or whatever. Thanks in advance.
Melly |
My suggestion would be to write in MovieVerse like Sirranon suggested, plenty of fodder in the movies. And then try to tackle the Silmarillion first. Then, the Lord of the Rings. The Sil is a difficult book to read for most folks but if you read it with the idea that it is a history book and not a novel, it is much easier. Reading it first will add an extra punch to what you read in LotR. You will be familiar with all the history that has led up to the LotR and be familiar with several of the characters like Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and some of the underlying history.
As for Elvish, Google "Sindarin" or "Quenya" and it will give you a list of sites to choose from.
Inglor
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melissaofaharon
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the help. I have been schlepping through some of the stuff. Lots of good info and advice.
Melly |
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NeumeIndil
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: St. Louis, Missouri, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I've amassed a number of online resources in researching my fics, mostly from fellow OSA users. I actually started a thread for such, and the link to it is: http://www.openscrolls.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1892
Whoever suggested reading the Silm. first since you know the movies is spot on. It'll help you a bit with some of the Virtual Village stuff too since a number of those characters are from the Silm. (I just came from your Newbie thread and it was on my mind.)
As for the language stuff, I would suggest the following:
http://move.to/ardalambion <-- Gives background information on all of Tolkien's languages (including non-book). Word lists are available from Quenya to English and vice versa and probably Sindarin too, though I'm not entirely sure. There is also an Elvish language course available through this site, but I've heard mixed reviews of it. Might be worth checking out all the same.
http://www.councilofelrond.com/index.php <-- Another language site, specifically Elvish languages, with available help in the form of translations (Sindarin [third age spoken elvish] and Quenya [Silmarillion Elvish, kind of like the Latin of M.E.]) and transcriptions into tengwar (Elvish writing). It has a good listing of other resources too.
http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/rawaths/names.html <-- An essay explaining the naming conventions of Middle Earth which might help you understand the mechanics of the languages.
http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm <-- An easy to search Olde English dictionary; very helpful if working w/ the Rohirric language, though the common tongue of M.E.(Westron) is closer to Sindarin elvish.
http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html <-- English first names translated into Quenya according to their meanings. Example, my given name is Rebecca, meaning "broken or bound", and Sue meaning "lily". In Quenya, then, my name is Neume[snare] Indil[lily], and far prettier than the name on my birth certificate.
For more general information (i.e. Who the heck is Queen Beruthiel etc.): http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp The Encyclopedia of Arda is compiled from Tolkien's works (the Silm., the Hobbit, the Trilogy) and the supplementals his son edited after his death, plus other books and artwork by other people.
My other favorite for such is the Thain's Book ( http://www.tuckborough.net/ ) which is geared specifically toward the Third Age of M.E. but offers the same kinds of geneologies, histories and in some cases maps, as well as links to additional sources.
Whew. Hope some of that proves useful and welcome again,
Neume
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NancyBrooke
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Joined: 11 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:40 am Post subject: |
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And don't be afraid to ask for help along the way ... if you read ff, and come across a book character and are intrigued, don't be afraid to include them in your fic so long as you ask for some pointers.
I do that frequently, i.e. find I want to write about a character I have only read about superficially because of their unique circumstances: Mithrellas, Angbor, Earnur, Glorfindel ... all of those I've looked into online, in books and by asking questions in this forum before writing about them.
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melissaofaharon
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: one more question |
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Ok, so after murking through a lot of info..And I am still lost, but getting closer to not being lost.
I have my OMC's first name, what about a last? I am still toying with the idea of if he's Elven or mortal or something in between. (A hobbit, doubtful, kisses to Merry and Pippin, those cute rascals.)
Does anyone have a suggestion for the quandry I am in. (Okay so it is harder to make a RL person into a fic character. I am not trying to use all of their traits, but enough to make it interesting.) Feel free to PM me if you want to hear more of my ideas. Or to give out more things to look at, feel free.
Thanks again for your patience and responses.
*is off daydreaming again.*
Melly |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: one more question |
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| melissaofaharon wrote: | Ok, so after murking through a lot of info..And I am still lost, but getting closer to not being lost.
I have my OMC's first name, what about a last? I am still toying with the idea of if he's Elven or mortal or something in between. (A hobbit, doubtful, kisses to Merry and Pippin, those cute rascals.)
Does anyone have a suggestion for the quandry I am in. (Okay so it is harder to make a RL person into a fic character. I am not trying to use all of their traits, but enough to make it interesting.) Feel free to PM me if you want to hear more of my ideas. Or to give out more things to look at, feel free.
Thanks again for your patience and responses.
*is off daydreaming again.*
Melly |
Names would greatly depend on the race / group your character belongs to. For instance if they are Numenorean, you could use either Quenya or Adunaic, depending on social status and the time period you set it. If they're Gondorian, similarly a lot of the names were in Quenya.
For elves, again depends on your time period; First Age in Aman you would probably use Quenya, for instance. For Sindar, obviously you could use Sindarin, but there is also Doriathrin, similar to Sindarin, spoken in Doriath (so in my stories I have had some of the Elves in Oropher / Thranduil / Celeborn's entourages with names from that language).
For the Falathrim you could use Sindarin, but they also were supposed to have their own, slightly archaic language, For that I use Telerin, for instance when I've had Cirdan's friends and followers.
For Lorien you also have Nandorin, so for relatives of Haldir or other people living in Lorien I have sometimes used that.
These Elvish languages are all available on Ardalambion, which I noticed Neume posted a link to.
For Hobbits, I will admit that isn't my speciality, but what I generally do is have a look at the geneologies in the appendices and have a look at the sort of names used. For girls I think flowers are very often used.
Hope some of that is useful or might spark bunnies.
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Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 1153
Location: Maglor's Lap
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: one more question |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: |
For Hobbits, I will admit that isn't my speciality, but what I generally do is have a look at the geneologies in the appendices and have a look at the sort of names used. For girls I think flowers are very often used.
Hope some of that is useful or might spark bunnies. |
Hobbit names:
Five different sorts of personal names can be distinguished among the Hobbits:
1) High-sounding names taken mostly from legends from the past concerning both Hobits and Men, e.g. Bandobras, Peregrin, Fredagar, Menegilda. Their use is particular to a few old aristocratic families, such as the Tooks and the Bolgers. Most of the names of this kind can be found in the Took genealogy of Appendix C.
2) Short meaningless names, the male names ending in -a (usually changed to -o by Tolkien) and the female names ending in -o or -e (changed to -a by Tolkien), e.g. Bilbo, Frodo, Odo, Dora. They were the most normal kind of Hobbit name, and especially used by the middle class. Most of them can be found in the Baggins genealogy of Appendix C.
3) Short names of Old Englush or similar origin, e.g. Samwise, Hamfast, Carl. These are used mainly by peasants and small tradesmen. Most of them can be found in the Longfather Tree of Master Samwise in Appendix C. No female names of this occur in the corpus.
4) Names of flowers and jewels, e.g. Belladonna, Rose, Berylla, Ruby. These kinds are used only for females.
5). Names of vaguely Celtic style, e.g. Rorimac, Saradoc, Bombadil, Berilac. These are peculiar to the Bucklanders, apparently derived from the former language of the southern Stoors. Save for Bombadil and Kalimac, they all can be found in the Brandybuck geanealogy in the appendix C. No female names of this kind occurs in the corpus.
Source: An Introduction to Elvish by Jim Allan, page 190-191
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah, I forgot that book had a section on Hobbit names. There's also information on Dwarvish names in there, should you be interested.
(sorry, the stuff I wrote was from memory...a kind of overstretched and tired memory at the moment  )
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Rhapsody
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SpaceWeavil wrote: | Oh yeah, I forgot that book had a section on Hobbit names. There's also information on Dwarvish names in there, should you be interested.
(sorry, the stuff I wrote was from memory...a kind of overstretched and tired memory at the moment ) |
 It was meant as being complimentary Space. Please don't feel bad.
It also has info on Rohirrim names, Adunaic, Dunedain....
It's a book worth having imho.
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Sirannon
Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 67
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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*Warning incoherent rambings ahead*
So melissa, I'm guessing you are feeling rather overwhelmed right about now. What with all the strange naming conventions, the different languges etc. Just don't let all these details take away your urge to write fan fiction. That the details in a story are correct is always a pleasure, but if the story is boring, no amount of correctness can save it. So for example if you were to give an elf from Gondolin a Nandorian name, it would probaply be a mistake, but it wouldn't exactly be the end of the world. (just to give an obscure example)
I guess what I'm trying to say ( rather incoherently) is that you shouldn't worry too much about making mistakes in canon. Everybody is pretty forgiving if they can see that you have tried to keep with canon and will be extremely helpful.
I am pretty certain that if you continue to write Tolkien fan fic you will automatically endeavour to make as few canon mistakes as possible.
*ramblings out*
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melissaofaharon
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 74
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sirannon,
Thanks for that little bit of advice. I tend to get overwhelmed and then sadly, give up. But this character won't leave me alone. (Which is a good thing, I think).
I will try and get down some ideas. RL is always there to remind me that I am needed. And with two kids, there's always something to be done. And a husband, who helps out a lot, which is a plus.
Then again it is nice to live in fantasy, even for just a few minutes to have some ale with my cute lil hobbits. 
Melly |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 23
Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Sirannon wrote: | *Warning incoherent rambings ahead*
So melissa, I'm guessing you are feeling rather overwhelmed right about now. What with all the strange naming conventions, the different languges etc. Just don't let all these details take away your urge to write fan fiction. |
Oh, I didn't mean to overwhelm you with anything in that. Just I tend to get ideas when I do research into things - I find the more I kind of read into it, the more the plot bunnies breed. And I am a bit of a languages freak when it comes to Tolkien so possibly I get carried away. I was just trying to offer some suggestions that might have given you ideas, since you sounded like you were still at the planning stage.
| Quote: | | That the details in a story are correct is always a pleasure, but if the story is boring, no amount of correctness can save it. |
Agreed. *skulks off, looking at her own list of rather boring stories...* 
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