[Roisin]

How's that for a sensational topic?

Apparently in Morgoth's Ring (which I have but haven't read yet) it indicates that Elves do not have any extramarital sex and apparently don't have particularly strong sex drives, either. (see http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm

Yet I think there is another reference somewhere in this vast body of work that Galadriel and Celeborn were "together" before they got married.

So do you subscribe to the idea that "Extramarital Elven sex is not canon" or do you interpret it more loosely, as I (and apparently a lot of fanfic writers ) do?

I tend to take the attitude that Elves are sort of like Catholics in that they aren't SUPPOSED to have premarital sex but many (if not most) do anyway.

Roisin

[Viv]

Morgoth's Ring goes into this fairly thoroughly. Basically, elves have sex not just with their bodies (hröar) but also with their souls (fëar). When they have sex, their fëar mingle, binding them together. This is marriage, and it is for eternity (not, by the way, ending with death). The bridegifts and vows before Elbereth and all that stuff is just ceremony. Apparently there are cases of elves "marrying" in times of strife by just going someplace cozy and shagging each other senseless (nice pwp bunny, that).

But no, according to Tolkien, elves are incapable of casual sex.

Which of course doesn't mean we can't write about it.

Oh, and regarding Galadriel and Celeborn... I don't know where that reference is, but it would make sense for Galadriel and Celeborn to be physically intimate without needing a ceremony. Her family, after all, wasn't exactly available for gift-giving and celebration. In fact, they may be one of those rare cases of ceremony-less marriages. (Though I don't know that for sure.)

[Ellbee]

Ah, my favorite subject. I go for a more liberal interpretation, myself. I read one interesting essay about Tolkien. He himself wrote a lot of this stuff with the attitude that he was translating a history, and not making the whole thing up. But apparently he at one point said that some of this may be wrong, as it was an interpretation by men of elves, and they may have projected their own ideals onto elves. Which is as good an excuse for ignoring any pesky bits of canon that get in the way as I've ever seen.

That said, once again, you also get into all the inconsistency. Take Eol, for instance. Tolkien said (at first, anyway) that he took Aredhel (spelling?) to wife by force, which to me says rape, and besides the fact that elves are supposed to die, I don't see how you could get that soul-bond thing going if one of the parties is unwilling. I understand Tolkien did some backpedalling and said later that she was not completely unwilling, but that appears to be the sort of age-old, "yeah, but she really wanted it" justification for rape that I find completely repugnant.

And, although there is definitely right and wrong, good and evil in Middle-Earth, there isn't the whole religion-based concept of sin, especially as applied to otherwise innocuous activities, like cussing and eating ham and sex. I mean, if elves can chose whether and when to conceive, there isn't even the question of poor bastard babies to worry about. If you strip away the Catholic overlay, I think elves would consider sex to be no more evil or sinful than any other physical pleasure, like a beautiful song, or a sunshiny day, or any other elvish delight.

Anyway, that's my logic train, ride it if you like.

-Ell

[Viv]

Hmm... so maybe there's the Complete Act (i.e., body and soul participating, making the whole thing official and mystical and all) and the Halfsies (quickie in a tree... more for entertainment than cosmic meaning).

I could buy that. It's not in the spirit of Tolkien, but then, most fic writers (myself included) can't ass themselves to care about what Tolkien really intended to say. (We're more interested in telling our own stories. Duh. )

[Roisin]

Well it sounds like the quickie in the tree would be good exercise, anyway.

Roisin

[sindohte]

Although I am a firm believer in sticking with the canon as laid out by Tolkien, when it comes to the issue of Elf sex, I am a Reformed Tolkienist. I think that Elves believe sex to be a pleasurable activity which they enjoy engaging in. However, when it comes to recreational sex, they turn to humans to fulfill their sexual urges. I think that when it comes the co-mingling of both bodies and souls, Elves only have sex with other Elves when they are ready to commit themselves fully and settle down for all eternity with their mate.

So to sum it all up, humans are sexual junk food - tasty but not ultimately satisfying. The only exception to this rule is when an Elf finds true love with a mortal.

And thus ends the portion of the canon of sindohte which covers Elf sex.

[NancyBrooke]

[Viv]

[sheraiah]

quickie in a tree... more for entertainment than cosmic meaning).

Oh, doesn't that just spawn plot bunnies right and left!

Seriously, though, while I don't begin to pretend to be anywhere near an expert on things canon it seems to me that elves being immortal would encourage sexual experimentation. I mean, they have all eternity, why not get creative? It seems to me to be in the realm of plausibility.

[Ellbee]

[sindohte]

[Jackies3617]

Elves and sex. Yes Tolkien was a confirmed Catholic, so he would have preferred the idea of elves being beyong sex after a certain age.

Personally I love elves and elven / human sex.

I mean imagine how good you could be if you had all eternity to perfect you technique so to speak!

[Elentari]

Hell yeah!

On that point, something that always struck me as unbelievably unfair and also downright paradoxical, was that the elves 'lost their interest in sex because they had other things to occupy their minds with' (can't remember the exact phrase, but that's the spirit). However, they never lost their interest in other things that could be also considered not necessary, like singing for example. Can you believe that someone would spend a great deal of time preparing new songs, singing and playing instruments but not making sex with - canon ( sex only with the official partner)- the one they love? it sounds a bit odd to me. Music, as I see it at leats, is an activity for entertaining - save the musicians who play for a living - , much the way sex is.

(If the survival of species depended on men's ability to call us on tuesday after that wonderfull weekend together, the mankind would have never survived to this day... or female's ability to see what the hell is so grand about twelve men running after a ball, btw.)

So if you keep singing for ever and ever why the $#@ wouldn't you keep making love to that gorgeous, drop-dead sexy person who is actually married to you?

The only explanation I find is the 'conservative personal point of view 'thing.

Which I choose to disagree with completely, by the way.

While men (and dwarves and hobbits) might loose interest in sex with the eventual fading of body (or not! hey people are sexually active to their deaths nowadays! Is it completely irrational to think some of the couples in the medieval times did so too? ok, mostly not with their spouses, but that's besides the point...) elves remain gorgeous and attractive forever...

[Panneth]

One of the things I find really interesting about the UT and HoME that it is all matieral Tolkien never really used in his published works. When Tolkien was older he got a lot more conservative and re-wrote the more sexual parts of his work and you can see that in the bits in there. For instance originally Celeborn was Galadriel's lover who she later married, but this got cut and in earlier versions of the story of Beren and Luthien, Luthien danced Morgoth to sleep. This is a far more erotic (and I use that term in only a mild sense) way to do it.

Ultimately Tolkien was a religious man and he gave his strong morals and beliefs to his characters and races in the books imho.

[Coreinha1980]

Tolkien was indeed a devout Catholic, and this shows in how he views sex and other issues in his writing.

The way I understand it is, Elves only have sex with one person, because it's a mingling of the soul (fea) and it binds them together for all eternity. Makes STD's sound like a silly concern, considering you could be stuck with the person you lose your virginity to even after death!

As for sex during marriage, according to Tolkien (I think this was in one of his letters, I'm not entirely sure though) they stop after having children, because their spirits are always in control of their bodies.

A sort of Mind over Matter thing, I guess.

Personally, I would think that the sex would definitely be less common (anyone who has children can attest to this) but because it's such an intimate experience for them, going far beyond physical intimacy, they might do it from time to time, just for fun, lol.

Those are just my thoughts though, at least, the last part is.

Having added her two cents, for whatever it's worth, Cor exit's stage left.

XOXO

Cor