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RoxieRxChicago
Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: Kentucky
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 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: Language Questions |
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I'm making my first foray into actually writing a fic and I have some issues I could use some advice on.
The idea behind my story revolves around the Avari, who they were, and where they actually went. My idea is that a group of the Avari eventually ended up in Ireland and became known in that area of the world as the Tuatha de Dannaan. The biggest problem I'm having at this point is deciding what form of elvish they would speak. Would it be some mutated form of Quenya, or Sindarin, or some sort of Sylvan dialect? Would it become a hybrid of one those and Irish Gaelic? I'm in a quandry and would be interested to know what you all think.
Part of my story will take place in Ireland during the Potato Famine, part of it will take place in Middle Earth. It will deal with the departing of the Elves and the fading of the remaining Elves into myth and legend. It will also deal quit a bit with Elvish interaction and involvement with humans (not a mortal/elf romance though).
Let me know what you think and if you have any ideas and advice.
Thanks,
Roxie |
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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Location: Looking at shiny things
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Language Questions |
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| RoxieRxChicago wrote: | I'm making my first foray into actually writing a fic and I have some issues I could use some advice on.
The idea behind my story revolves around the Avari, who they were, and where they actually went. My idea is that a group of the Avari eventually ended up in Ireland and became known in that area of the world as the Tuatha de Dannaan. The biggest problem I'm having at this point is deciding what form of elvish they would speak. Would it be some mutated form of Quenya, or Sindarin, or some sort of Sylvan dialect? Would it become a hybrid of one those and Irish Gaelic? I'm in a quandry and would be interested to know what you all think.
Part of my story will take place in Ireland during the Potato Famine, part of it will take place in Middle Earth. It will deal with the departing of the Elves and the fading of the remaining Elves into myth and legend. It will also deal quit a bit with Elvish interaction and involvement with humans (not a mortal/elf romance though).
Let me know what you think and if you have any ideas and advice.
Thanks,
Roxie |
There's a quote from People's of Middle-earth that might help you language-wise;
"The Avari were those Elves who remained content with Middle-earth and refused the summons of the Powers; but they and their many secret tongues do not concern this book,"
So if they had 'many secret tongues' you can more or less justify saying that their language evolved somehow into Gaelic or one of the other Celtic languages like Brythonic, which (as Welsh is a descendant) could easily be linked to Sindarin-style languages (you'd probably have to stretch some links if you wanted to compare actual words, for instance you could argue that Welsh dinas meaning a town could be descended from minas in Sindarin, meaning a tower, but used as a composite of many city names, that sort of thing).
Thing with the Tuatha de Danaan was that they invaded Ireland, so were not native peoples and could have come from anywhere originally. They were also more or less wiped out in Ireland by the Sons of Mil Espaine (the land was divided, IIRC, and the Tuatha de Danaan were given the land beneath the ground, while Mil Espaine's people were given the land above the ground. The Tuatha de Danaan then lived in a 'sidh' or 'hollow hill' (Sindarin 'sidh' means 'peace' so you could even argue that this is somehow related to the treaty between the two people?))
But basically because the Tuatha de Danaan didn't come from Ireland originally and didn't become the dominant people, who evolved into the modern day Gaels, you don't need to have Gaelic as the natural descendant of the Avari language.
One theory (that I used in a kind of half-written novel of mine) was that the Tuatha de Danaan originated somewhere in the Middle-east, around Iran and Armenia, for example, and there are a few other theories as to where they might have come from.
As for the Avari language itself, Tolkien only produced six words, each meaning the same as 'Quendi', the speakers, but showing different Avarin variations. You can find more information on that on the Ardalambion site. There is very little information really, so you could basically do whatever you wanted. Pick a part of the world and work from there 
Hope this helps. If you're in need of any more info regards the mythology or such, I can also lay my hands on a fair few textbooks that are lying about the place from when I was writing my thing (which I really must finish - nothing like your idea though, mine was based more on mindless violence and gratuitous gore  )
SW
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RoxieRxChicago
Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Space, you are awesome. I knew about the underground thing, and the sidh (although not the Sindarin meaning... that's cool, I will figure out a way to make use of it if I can) and planned to use that. What little I know of the Tuatha de Dannaan is from stories my Grandmother told me when I was little. I've tried to do some research on the internet but there is next to nothing even remotely useful that I have found. So whatever you can give me would be great.
Thanks in advance,
Rox |
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Alassante
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Just wanted to say this sounds REALLY interesting Roxie. So make sure you SSP it when you post.
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SpaceWeavil
Joined: 27 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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It is a really good idea, and setting it Ireland gives such a load of possibilities - I mean already I want to know how your Elves got on with the various English incursions, the Civil War etc, and if they're still about now with all the troubles going on there.
Also you've got the whole thing of the Tuatha de Danaan being the basis for the 'fairy hills' legends about people being taken into the Hollow Hills by the 'fairies' and emerging years later since time doesn't seem to work the same way. Or the fact that after they went to live in the sidh, they were called, in the masculine, aes sidh, or men of the hollow hills, but in the feminine, ban sidh, which is where the original 'banshee' legend comes from (sidh is pronouced 'shee' in Gaelic).
On giving info, there's a fair amount on that part of the legend, so what I can do is compile what I have and PM it, or post it here depending on the length, or if there's ever any specific questions or aspects, PM me and I'll see what I can find. I have a fair amount on the different Gaelic languages at home as well if you wanted more info on the linguistics issue.
Also a good site to look into is Sacred Texts
They have complete online transcripts of a lot of 19th Century works on British mythology, they have the Mabinogion for Welsh legends, a lot of Arthurian stuff, tons of Celtic resources. I ended up buying the CD rom version of the site for my book, there was just so much of it I wanted to read and use (my thing was comparative mythology regarding the Tuatha de Danaan rather than linking it to Tolkien, but I would imagine the same documents on there would help you in this).
It's definitely a winning idea, I reckon 
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