[sindohte]

Discussion of the Quenta Silmarillion - Of Aule and Yavanna will begin officially on Tuesday 4/13

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Anna]

Ok, since nobody else seems eager to share some thoughts about "Of Aulë and Yavanna", I´ve decided to give it a go!

I really do like the tone in this chapter. I think it gives the reader such a cute and down to earth vision of the relationship between Aulë and Yavanna. They kind of act like any married couple. Ok, granted, me and my hubby do not use that kind of archaic language when arguing (or any other time, btw). But still...

BTW, why aren´t the dwarves called the Firstborn? I know that Ilúvatar decided they should sleep until they were allowed to wake up again, but they were alive and kicking before the elves and the humans. They even had a mind of their own, since Ilúvatar had already given it to them! He does tell Aulë: "Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will."
In other words; they were fully functional beings, both physically as well as mentally, before the First- and Secondborn.
Did the following generations of the dwarves know about this?

I absolutely adore how the ents came about! I have a weak spot for them...
I also looove this little part taking place between Aulë and Yavanna:
"Eru is bountiful,' she said. 'Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.'
'Nonetheless they will have need of wood,' said Aulë, and he went on with his smith-work."

[sindohte]

I have to second Anna's opinion that I liked the tone of this chapter. It was both formal, yet also instructional.

As for the question of why the dwarves were not considered the First Born even though they were created before the Elves, my guess is that it was because Aule created them without Illuvatar's permission. And that while the Valar certainly had the power to create new life, it was still something that was really the province of Eru. It was such a heartbreaking passage to read about Aule picking up his hammer to destroy the very beings that he had so lovingly created. I think the fact that the dwarves were sentinent beings with the capacity to know fear helped to win over Eru in allowing them to live.

[BittenBuggy]

The reason I'm not a huge Yavanna-fan is all because of this chapter. She just seems so whiney and--- Oh heck, I don't know. But I really dont like her tone and her going to Manwe and saying "Manwe, Aule is going to hurt all my precious toys. Give me something to hurt his toys back with!" It just seems so childish.

So, needless to say, I often skip this chapter when re-reading

Intersting thought on the dwarves. They were not the firstborn because they were Illuvatar's 'adopted' children and they had not been 'thought of' first. The Elves were the first of his children because they were in the mind of Eru before all else (save of course, the Ainur) and the Men like-wise, are the second-born or second-in-thought. At least thats the way I look at it. And Tolkien is careful never to label the dwarves 'third-born.'

I'll be back with more thoughts! Post post post!

[sindohte]

[Andreth]

Actually the Dwarves weren't sentient until Eru made them that way. Aule was getting ready to bring his hammer down on them and the Dwarves cowered away, which was how he knew Eru had given them true life. Kind of calls to mind some biblical connotations with Abraham. So yes, the Dwarves weren't counted in the First and Second born because Eru didn't make them. He only finished what Aule started.

That seemed to be one of the distinctions between what the Ainur could create and what Eru could create - that the Ainur could create life, they just couldn't create sentient life with souls. That was Eru's domain alone and the reason why Morgoth had to corrupt instead of create, for the most part. That and the fact that turning to the dark side affected his powers.

And BB, I do agree with you that Yavanna was a whiner. I know Tolkien had to do this in order to account for the creation of the Ents, but Yavanna always seems to be obsessively protective of 'her' creations. I never much liked her at all. To me Aule and Yavanna's marriage seems like that old case of the nice guy marrying a bitch. Although I'm sure there are many people out there who like Yavanna, I'm just not one of them.

Anna

[sindohte]

[Anna]

I wonder what the first orcs were like. Did they have any memories left from their lives as elves, you think?

Do we know whether the orcs were immortal or not? At least the first generation of orcs could be immortal, couldn´t they? When they were killed, where did they go? Surely not to the halls of Mandos, right?

Feel free to correct me asap! I know I ask stupid questions...

[BittenBuggy]

Lol Anna, I have never given that much thought! The only thing I did run across was orc-sex I had always been happy thinking that there were only man-orcs and no girls, but in the Silm is says that 'they multiplied after the manner of the children of Eru' which means... yes folks.. orc-sex.

Ick ick ick

Not sure about when they died, did orcs have souls? I always thought not, so its kind of like an animal dying. They just kind of... poof. (Sorry to all the animal lovers, I know its sad!)

And I have no idea in regards to the immortality, it doesnt make sense that such a pure thing would be something they kept when corrupted by Melkor... Hmm... *ponders* Good questions Anna!

[sindohte]

Did Orcs have any sense of the fact that they were once Elves? I would imagine that if they had a sense of what they had lost, they would take out their hatred against their former race vs. taking it out against the one who warped and turned them into Orcs.

[Thuriniel]

In "Valaquenta" it states that "Melkor was jealous of [Aule], for Aule was most like himself in thought and in powers."

I thought it was interesting that Aule would "defy" the initial design of Iluvatar, just like Melkor did. As I read about Aule creating the dwarves without waiting for the arrival of the first born, I immediately thought of that quote from Valaquenta that for some reaon had stayed with me. Although Aule does obey in the end and knows that what he's done has been against Iluvatar's plans and shows meekness, there is definitely a streak of rebelliousness in him -- or so I thought as I read.

As far as the relationship between Aule and Yavanna goes, I agree with Andreth ... they do seem like the typical nice guy marrying the bitch. Aule's last line made me laugh ... there's Yavanna rambling about the ents and the eagles and all the protection her creations will have from Aule's creatures, and Aule simply replies, his eyes still fixed on his work: "nonetheless they will have need of wood."

This was a delightful chapter to read, not only because it was so well laid out and it explained the creation of the dwarves and the purpose of the ents and the eagles, but also because Tolkien did expose quite well the intricacies of Aule and Yavanna's marriage ... they may be of the Valar, but they sure sound like any old couple !

[Andreth]

On what Aule used to make the Dwarves: I seem to remember seeing a mention that Aule made them from the substance of Arda or something along those lines, but haven't had any luck finding that passage today. I don't think it ever gives a clear idea of how he did it, because in other references Tolkien seemed to hint that the version of the Dwarves origins here in the Silm was brought from Valinor by the Noldor, who claimed to have learned it from Aule himself.

There's lots of interesting references in PoMe about the Dwarves. Like the fact that their language was said to be secret, but then it mentions that in the ancient days the Naugrim (Dwarves) dwelt in the mountains where they met mortal men long before they ever met Elves. And that the Easterlings' tongue showed more kinship to Dwarf-speech than that of Elvish speech, like the rest of the Mortals.

But back to my point, there's the reference of the Dwarves saying that at their creation Aule gained them a special privilege to distinguish them from Elves and Mortals - that the spirits of the first Seven Fathers of the Dwarves would be reborn from time to time in each of their kindreds. Most prolifically that of Durin, and that all the reborn Durins retained the memories of their past lives.

There's also this quote: "They shall be the third children and more like Men, the second". Also goes on to say "But the relations of the Dwarves to the Valar and especially to the Vala Aule are (as it seems) quite different from those of Elves and Men." So there's more than you ever wanted to know about Dwarves, but I've always found them to be a very interesting race.

As to the Orcs' origins, we have to remember that the Silm is really something that was pieced together by Christopher Tolkien after choosing from among his father's stores of incomplete work. Later on Professor Tolkien begins to rethink the Elvish origins of the Orcs because he sees flaws in that reasoning and tries to find a workable solution. This essay can be found in Morgoth's ring. But he does say that if they were indeed of Elvish origins that after death their souls would go to Mandos and be held there until the end. Although somewhere in the vastness of HoMe I also remember reading that Morgoth held these souls enthralled and when they died they'd be called back to him and I suppose replaced in a new body.

He said some of the more powerful Orcs could have been corrupted Maiar, corrupted Elves, corrupted Mortals, or even just creations of Morgoth's similar to what the Dwarves were before Eru gave them true life. That they lived and could function on their own, but they had no independent thought other than what Morgoth taught them (i.e. killing and general nastiness), which was why he created their own language for them and why they were so ineffective when leaderless (without Morgoth or Sauron).

If I don't stop now then I'm probably going to give Hannah an aneurysm with this long post. I hope it at least brought a little extra to the understanding of the Silm. Looking at this stuff has also reminded me that I need to go scan this Orc essay for valerectio, which I completely forgot until just now.

Anna

[BittenBuggy]

*Blood vessels go a'popping in BB's brain*

Anna how could you

[sindohte]

Poor sweet BB. When Anna gets all educational, it gets me all excited It turns out that I am a pedant at heart. Okay, now I know that I have made sweet BBster's head explode just about now. Once again my work is done for the day.

Very interesting information about how the spirits of the seven dwarves are reborn into each subsequent generation. Hmm, makes me think of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. There has to be a plot bunny hiding in their somewhere.

The whole business about Orcs and whether they had souls or not is very interesting. I will have to ponder that for a bit.