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Leila
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
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Location: the Pegasus Galaxy
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 Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:30 pm Post subject: Lord Elrond and King Thranduil |
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I've been wondering how they feel about each other lately. So, what do you guys think? Were they friends? Did they merely know each other? Did they dislike each other? Well?
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Tripsoverhercats
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:24 am Post subject: |
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They probably did not have very much to do with each other, in truth. Thranduil spent the second and third ages in Mirkwood, while Elrond was based in the west. They most likely first met during the Last Alliance.
Thranduil lost his father and 2/3 of all his forces in the 7 year campaign, and promptly departed afterwards. There is no indication that he ever had any direct contact between any of the other elven communities throughout the entire third age until Legolas shows up at the Council, however he counted Gandalf a friend, and may have done some back-channel talking through the wizard.
However, Thranduil is most often placed in Doriath, which was destroyed by the Noldor, and where Elrond's mother escaped from bearing one of the Silmarils. The fact that Elrond was Gil-Galad's herald (the last Noldor high king) probably did not endear him to Thranduil.
There is also an impression that Celeborn and Thranduil are related, and Celeborn's marriage to Galadriel (another Noldor) might have cooled off that relationship as well.
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 9:33 am Post subject: |
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We've been discussing this a lot over in the Fanfic Conventions thread (in general discussion). Here was my reply there:
| Viv wrote: | | sindohte wrote: | | 3. What is the source of the supposed bad blood between Elrond and Thranduil? Unless there is Version 1.5 of Lord of the Rings out there that I have not read, I am clueless as to why these two Elves would dislike each other. |
This is an old feud. It helps to remember that Elrond, despite the fact that he was descended from Luthien, placed himself with the Noldorin exiles (i.e., he served under Gil-Galad). Oropher, Thranduil's dad was an elf of Doriath and despised the Noldorin exiles.
When Doriath fell, Thranduil went east and founded his kingdom among the woodland elves because he "had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no love." (Unfinished Tales; check the index for "Oropher").
So, that was the beginning of the animosity between Thranduil and the Elrond/Galadriel contingent.
Unfinished Tales also says that in the second age, Oropher moved his kingdom north of the Gladden fields partly because "he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lorien."
During the War of the Last Alliance, Thranduil was there. He would have noticed that his woodland army had equipment and armor vastly inferior to that of the Noldorin army. He would also have noticed that when Oropher sounded a charge and led the woodland elves into the fray, Gil-Galad did not follow with his mighty army right away. The majority of the woodland elves -- including Oropher, Thranduil's dad -- were slaughtered.
Tolkien writes that after the War of the Last Alliance, "There was in Thranduil's heart a still deeper shadow. He had seen the horror of Mordor and could not forget it."
So there is loads of evidence pointing to a bitter, angry Thranduil who wasn't big pals with Elrond and Galadriel.
Doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy; he certainly had his reasons. |
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Leila
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
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Location: the Pegasus Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I had a feeling it was something along those lines.......Any clue why there are alot of stories in which Lord Elrond and King Thranduil are good friends?
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Leila wrote: | | I had a feeling it was something along those lines.......Any clue why there are alot of stories in which Lord Elrond and King Thranduil are good friends? |
Well, Legolas seemed willing to let bygones be bygones when he passed through Lorien with the Fellowship. Maybe some ficwriters assume that because Legolas could be friendly, his papa was also ready to let old grudges go. I'm not entirely convinced of this, but then, filling in motivations and character development is what fanfiction is all about. 
Do you have something in the works that deals with this? It's an interesting topic, I think. |
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Leila
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
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Location: the Pegasus Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Viv wrote: | | Do you have something in the works that deals with this? It's an interesting topic, I think. |
No.....but I was thinking about it.......
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miriel361
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Posts: 417
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion here. I hope you don't mind my taking this information and using it in my story? My elves are not overly noble and I think that elves feel everything more deeply than humans - perhaps even grudges.
On the other hand after the fiasco with the Silmarillons, they have a deeply engrained fear or killing or injuring one another. But that doesn't have to mean they were all friends.
Miriel |
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Viv
Challenge Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| miriel361 wrote: | | Interesting discussion here. I hope you don't mind my taking this information and using it in my story? |
Absolutely! It's JRR's info, not ours. So have at it. I'm sure Glorfy has some *issues* with other elves. And I agree with you that elves probably have some squeamishness about killing each other (after the kinslaying), but there are other ways they could be nasty to each other. For instance, Elwe proclaiming that Quenya was a forbidden language in Middle-earth (and then Galadriel, among others, speaking it anyway). Very passive aggressive, those elves.  |
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Zimraphel
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 22
Location: Burbank, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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My version of Glorfindel definitely has issues with the Feanorians, as whoever was left of the Golden Flower after his death probably were taken in by Tuor and remained at Sirion with him and later Earendil; some were probably slaughtered when the sons of Feanor sacked Sirion.
By the time Glorfindel returns to ME (I placed it around S.A. 1625, based on Tolkien's essays on Glorfindel), all the Feanorians save Celebrimbor and (presumably) Maglor are dead. He has no sympathy whatsoever for Celebrimbor's plight in Ost-in-Edhil, even though Celebrimbor disassociated himself from his family long before Sirion. |
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