[Viv]

[NancyBrooke]

My military advisor for "Devours" mentioned this possibility to me. I had never thought about it before. It's an intriguing thought.

In his entry on Orcs for The Complete Guide to Middle Earth Robert Foster writes "like Elves, they were fierce warriors and did not die naturally." On what he bases this assertion, specifically, I do not know.

[eiranae]

I'm also wondering if they go to the halls of Mandos like the elves or not. Would their corruption keep them from it?

[NancyBrooke]

[NeumeIndil]

One thing that I keep bumping into is that orcs were "bred" and/or "spawned" from corrupted elves. There's no mention of them still being elves or immortal (that I've found).

Does that mean that they *are* corrupted elves or that those elves that were taken in the first age were somehow grafted or crossed with beasts etc. to created a bastard race of beings that might have been somewhat elf like, kind of the Middle-earth equivalent of a really ill-tempered mule?

[NeumeIndil]

Yeah, what she said.

[Sulriel]

lots and lots and lots of good Orc info in "Morgoth's Ring."

There is some spotty evidence that Orcs were, if not immortal inthe sense of having the lifespan of Arda, that they were extremely long lived.

There are Orc captains having the same name throughout the histories (at least one, I'm sorry, this is off the top of my head) and it's unclear if it's a title, a same named Orc or the same Orc.

and other tidbits such as the Goblin King recognizing Gandalf's sword (in The Hobbit)

As far as I know, there are no mention of old or aging Orcs.

[Haleth]

*dons Tolkien geek cap*

If the orcs weren't immortal some of them could be very long lived.

A footnote in Appendix A mentions Azog, father of Bolg. Bolg was the 'great goblin' from the Hobbit. From Appendix B we know that Azog died in 2799 of the Third Age. It was 2941 when the events of the Hobbit took place. Bolg had to be at least 142 years old when he died.

In the Two Towers, Gorbag and Shagrat talk about 'the good old days' when there were not bosses. Presumably this is before Sauron returned to Mordor and revealed himself openly in 2951 TA, 67-68 years before the conversation took place. There is also some mention of the last great battle (I'd have to look it up) that could be interpreted as a reference to the War of the Last Alliance, but that's open to argument.

In the end, I don't know. It's something that's left open to interpretation.

[Haleth]

[eiranae]

[NancyBrooke]

[Alassante]

One Wiki to Rule them All says -

Barrow Wights
For many ages the Barrow-downs were sacred and revered, until out of the Witch-Kingdom of Angmar many terrible and tortured spirits fled across Middle-Earth, desperately searching to hide from the ravening light of the Sun. Demons whose bodies had been destroyed looked for other bodies in which their evil spirits could dwell. And so it was that the Barrow-downs became a haunted and terrible place. The demons became Barrow-wights, the Undead who animated the bones and jeweled armor of the ancient Kings of Men who had lived in the First Age of the Sun.


http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barrow-wights


Orcs

~are only able to destroy, not to create.

Presumably, an all male race would be incapable of sexual reproduction. However, one of Tolkien's theories possibly contradicts this (see below), and, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien stated, "For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar."

~ Made from the earth

According to the oldest "theory" proposed by Tolkien (found in The Fall of Gondolin, from The Book of Lost Tales, circa 1917 — the first tale of Middle-earth to be written in full), Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth ("bred from the heats and slimes of the earth").

~ Corrupted Elves

But, Tolkien later changed the legendarium so that Morgoth could no longer produce life on his own, and amended the origins to the "theory" that would eventually be published in The Silmarillion: that the Orcs of Angband were transformed from Elves — the purest form of life on Arda (the Earth) — by means of torture and mutilation; and this "theory" would then become the most popular. Moreover, if Orcs were in fact Elves at their core, this could perhaps mean that they were also immortal — a fact which, if true, would seem inconsistent with Tolkien's treatment of Orcs, although the books do not openly confirm or deny it. If Orcs indeed were immortal, it holds no doubt that their fëar would not be allowed reincarnation by Mandos, if they even answered the calling. Most Orcs would probably fear the calling of Mandos, and therefore would see their fëar diminished to evil spirits. These may have been some of the evil spirits occasionally described in the books, such as the spirit which tempted Gorlim of Barahir's company, or the Barrow-wights. There is some evidence for the immortality, or otherwise long life of Orcs in The Two Towers: Gorbag and Shagrat, during the conversation which Sam overheard, mention the "Great Siege" of the Last Alliance. It is possible to interpret from the sentence that they were actually there and remembered it themselves: an event which lay millennia in the past. Another interpretation of this conversation is that this "Great Siege" could have instead been merely the current siege ongoing at Minas Tirith, or the siege of Minas Morgul. This is consistent with a statement made in the "Myths Transformed" essay of Morgoth's Ring that the orcs had short lifespans in relation to the Numenoreans.

~ Fallen Maiar

There are hints in the History of Middle-earth series of books, (especially in Morgoth's Ring in the section "Myths Transformed"), that some Orc leaders, such as the First Age's Boldog, or the Great Goblin encountered by Bilbo and the Dwarves, may in fact have been fallen Maiar which had taken Orc form:

Some of these things may have been delusions and phantoms but some were no doubt shapes taken by the servants of Melkor, mocking and degrading the very forms of the children. For Melkor had in his service great numbers of Maiar, who had the power, as their Master, of taking visible and tangible shape in Arda. (Morgoth's Ring, "Myths transformed", text X')

Boldog (…) is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs (Author's footnote to the text X)

Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs. (Author's note to text)

~ Some cross-bred with Men

Later under Morgoth's lieutenant, the necromancer Sauron, it has been suggested that Men were cross-bred with the Orcs. This process was later repeated during the War of the Ring, creating the fierce Orcs known as Uruk-hai. This could suggest that there were, in fact, female orcs. Alternately it could suggest that the all male race of orcs was forced to breed with human females.


~Sentient beasts

Yet other of Tolkien's theories proposes that Orcs may have begun as animals of vaguely humanoid shapes, empowered by the will of the Dark Lord (first Morgoth, later Sauron):

The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (…). ('Morgoth's Ring', "Myths transformed", text VIII')

It is certain all Orcs were dependent on the Dark Lord in various ways: after their leader was defeated, the Orcs were confused and dismayed, and easily scattered by their enemies. In the millennia after Morgoth's defeat and banishment from Arda, they were without a leader, and degenerated to small, quarrelsome tribes hiding in the Misty Mountains. Only when Sauron returned to power did they begin to reclaim some of their old power. The same happened after Sauron's defeat by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men: only when Sauron returned as the Necromancer of Mirkwood did the Orcs become a real danger for Middle-earth again.

While Tolkien originally saw all Orcs as descended from tortured Elves, later comments of his indicate, according to Christopher Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring ("Myths Transformed, text X"), that he began to feel uncomfortable with this theory. At about the same time he removed the references to the Thrall-Ñoldorin, he also began searching for a new origin for the Orcs. The Orc origin question may have been one of the problems Tolkien tried to solve by completely changing the cosmology and prehistory of Arda. By setting the origin of Men back to almost the same time as the Elves, he possibly allowed for Men to be the origin of Orcs all along. Tolkien died before he could complete this upheaval of the cosmology, however, so the Elf origin was adopted in the published version of The Silmarillion.

It is interesting to note that to an extent, Tolkien did not regard Orcs as evil in their own right, but only as tools of Morgoth and Sauron. He wrote once that "we were all orcs in the Great War", indicating perhaps that an Orc for him was not an inherent build-up of personality, but rather a state of mind bound upon destruction.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcs

[Sulriel]

argh! Good stuff Alassante, but it doesn't all 'ring true' with what I remember from my previous, extensive, Orc research. Is there any way to tell, without pulling out all the sources, what part of that is quoted from Morgoth's Ring and which is speculation on the part of the author?

[Alassante]

[PippinIonad]