[Alassante]

We've been talking about the star ratings on another thread and in a group I'm in we've talked about reviews so I wanted to ask here. If you read something and you don't love it - how honest or helpful are you with the review?

This site doesn't allow flames so obviously no one says 'you suck!' but there is a 'OMG this is Gr8!' review and there is a 'I really enjoyed your characterization of Boromir, however, I thought chapter 2 showed Denethor in a very unbelievable light.' etc. review. Some people on here feel that if you don't like it - don't review. Knowing that fact, if I see a lot of hits on something but no reviews, I often worry that it is not good. Other people have no problem telling a person what they see wrong with the fiction in a polite way. (This is often called critting the fic) But is that really what the review function is for now adays? Others have mentioned leaving helpful crit for someone in a review and the writer tore into them in a PM or email (not neccessarily on this site but on all archives)

Give your opinion/thoughts but think about not just this archive but other sites (only those that do not allow flames)

1. As a writer, how honest do you want your readers to be with you? Do you feel once your story is actually posted, you only want good reviews and no crit or do you want any type of help you can receive? Does a review that points out minor mistakes such as typos make you mad? What if you felt the review was rather harsh - would you feel angry or hurt?

2. As a reader, how comfortable do you feel giving reviews of stories you have issues with? Do you tell the writer? Do you give a good review if you like it and no review if you don't? Do you think its your 'place' to give a writer a suggestion or two? Is a PM the more appropriate way to handle crit and reviews should be more supportive and flattering?

[LadyRoisin]

This is a really interesting topic Alassante, thanks for posting it. I hav yet to see one regarding reviewing stories you may not like, or might have problems with.

To answer your questions....

1. In regards to myself and recieving less than sparkling reviews. When I first started out in these communities back in October, I was adament I only wanted happy, positive reviews. I was new and my ego was severly fragile about my writing. I felt horribly intimidated by all the wonderful writers I was surrounded by. I wanted to be a part of things, but wasn't sure if I was a good enough writer.

I would say now that I am more open to all types of reviews. I of course love it when someone leaves me a nice review, telling me how much they loved my story. I don't know any author who doesn't love getting thos kind of reviews. But I'm finding I also appreciate reviews that point out things I could fix to make my story better. I don't have a beta reader yet, so when somone points out silly typos I make, it's actually helpful to me.

There's this lovely author who reviews my stories on another site, and she'll start out a review by saying something good about my story, a nice praise. But then she'll also give me some good, solid critic too. Like if I use a too modern phrase, she'll point out which one, and offer suggestions on how to fix it. If she sees typos, or a grammar error, she'll point out where, and give me suggestions on how to fix it. She goes through my storie with a fine tooth comb, but I LOVE it whn she reviews because I can tell she really read it, and that she cares enough about my story to take the time to point out my errors, and give me suggestions. I absolutely love that she gives suggestions, because sometimes I won't be sure how to fix it. And she's always respectful and gives her critic in a way that could not even begin to be taken as a flame. She always leaves a praise or two too, so I got h best of both worlds when she reviews. I feel good that I wrote something people liked, and also learned something new on how to make it better.

As to whether I get hurt or disappointed if I get a less than sterling review, sure if I'm feeling extra sensitive that day, I might be a little disappointed. I think that's human. But I also know that if a review is going to have some critic, I save it for later when I can absorb it properly, and get the most out of it. I certainly won't go and PM someone who took their precious time to leave me such an in depth review and start screaming at them. To me, that's actually a bit selfish of an author to do. I know for me, I don't get a bazillion reviews, or even a lot, so I appreciate all my reviews, especially the ones where someone really did take the time to point out what they liked, and what could be fixed, and suggestions on how to fix it. The suggestions mean soooo much, because then you're not left with this criticisim and not sure how to fix wht was critisized.

In the end, if someone feels very downtrodden by a review, they should just remember that it is just that...A review, someone's opinion. It's up to the author whether they take the advice of the reviewer or not. There's nothing set in stone that says "you must take the advice of eery single reviewer and apply it to your story" Just know that someone took their own time to respond, and appreciate it for that if nothing else.

Now, there IS one type of review I DON'T like to get besides flames (I mean flames are obviously one no author wants), and it doesn't happen here, but it's happened on a couple of the Yahoo Groups. There's this lady, I won't name her here, but she always leaves really bizzare, off the wall, comments that are poorly spelled, poor grammar. And if you can understand what this person is saying at all, what she says has absolutely no relevance to your story. You can't tell what she liked, or didn't like about your story. It's just a bizzare comment that's "there". It doesn't help the author at all, and I actually get really irritated when this person leaves comments on my stories, because I cannot make sense at all of what she says. I know this person's been banned from other communities due to this very thing. That is the ONLY case where I would rather someone just skip my story besides flamers. Like I said, this person isn't here on OSA, thank goodness. But I alays cringe on posting on the Yahoo groups that I know she's a member of, because I know within an hour or two, the bizzare comment will be there. It's actually irritating fo me because I think "Oh Yay! I got a review....Oh wait...No I didnt, just Person X leaving another bizzare comment again".....At this point, I just don't even bother reading what she says, because I know it's just going to be another irrelevant comment that makes no sense.

So, in summary of question 1. I like reviews of all types, so long as it's not a flame, and the person speaks respectfully and tatcfully.

2. As a reader contimplating whether I would review a story I feel iffy on, I take a lot of things into consideration. I always try to take into consideration the type of story it's meant to be. If the author warned of AU, non canon, or if it's in a catagory that's not meant to be canon, then I keep that in mind. So if a story is meant to be AU, or warns of AU, I'm not going to remind the author of canon events, and such.

If it's spelling and grammaer that is bothering me. I will politely suggest the author gives their story a second glance when it comes to editing. If I have the time, then I'll find the big errors, point them out, and give suggestions on how to fix it. If I know someone doesn't have a beta reader, or the author states they don't have one, I'll try to take the time to help them with anything really obvious that needs help.

Now, if a story is incorrectly labeled, warnings weren't given for stuff that really needed a warning, I will kindly suggest the author give a warning for such and such. Because sometimes they don't know, especially if they're new to fanfic. But it is something that can turn away readers, especially for the more serious stuff, and if a story is AU, an isn't labeled as such.

Now if a story is truly atrocious, I mean REALLY bad, like tons of very bad spelling mistakes, no use of capital letters at the beginning of a sentence, no proper punctuation, no paragraph breaks, no use of grammar at all....I'm talking REALLY bad, like it looks like a 3 year old wrote it in crayon, and it was then transposed onto the computer and posted, then it's highly likely I won't even bother. That story would need far too much help for me to be able to offer in a simple review. And if I knew I couldn't say anythin nice or positive at all, I just won't bother.

I always aim to be friendly, respectful, and positive even if I have criticisim to give. I always try my utmost to give critic in a manner that would help the author and not break them down. If I think someone needs to check their canon facts for example I won't say "I think you need to read the books", because that's making a rash assumption the auhor hasn't, and that's a bit rude. Instead I'll say "You might want to check this specific part in this book, in this chapter" I think it's always better to jut assume someone made an innocent mistake, rather than assume they didn't bother or didn't care.

If someone writes a characterization of a canon character that I don't like, I might offer my opinion, and make suggestions on how they could make it more believable. I always try to say "This is just my opinion but in regards to character A, I think you could have done B, C, and D to make it more believable. But I liked how you had them respond to E an F"

Wowie, this was long. But I hope it helps. Again, this was a really interesting topic Alassante, thanks for posting it!


Roisin

[Sulriel]

Great topic, Al. Thanks for posting the question.

I think I commented on the other thread, but I'll explain it here because I know I don't think like a lot of other people.

To me: there is a difference between a workshop and an archive.

An archive is like a library. Where you go to read finished works.

A workshop is ... a workshop - where you work on unfinished works.

In fanfiction, that line is very blurry - but in my mind I still make the distinction.


This is an archive. When I come here to read - I try to always either star or review if I like it. ususally, not always. Sometimes I'll read and come back later and review. I don't read stuff I don't like. I'll click off as soon as my brain clicks off - so no chance of a neg review from me here. Sometimes I'll read through and think 'eh' or 'huh' and sometimes I'll comment on the element that I liked that kept me reading. But I don't crit.

I seldom if ever crit in a review, and only then if an author has specifically asked for crit.

Sometimes, if someone asks for crit, I'll contact them privately if I am intriqued by the work and feel it's someone I can possibly have a good working relationship with.

but I like being able to say "I loved this" and somehow that has gotten to be somewhat of a bad thing in this fandom and I don't understand that. (in fact, it offends me to some degree) I don't mind detailed crit. I love my stories to get any attention at all. One liners are great as far as I'm concerned. Long and detailed is wonderful, but not required for me to get a warm fuzzy.

I do like if someone comments on some element about the story either postitive or negative if it opens a dialogue. What could be better to any author than talking about their story?

I'm not offended by it, but I don't expect critique here. When you go to the library, you don't write a letter to every author who's book you didn't read

A workshop is different. It's where unpolished and/or unfinished works are posted in order to be gone over and critted and improved. And I'm active in several workshop groups. But they don't have associated archives. They are working groups - and that's the difference to me. That's where I post my suggestions for improvement and those sorts of comments. critters.org is a good one, but they don't allow fanfic. Baen's has a good workshop and forum as well.

It works well IMO because those authors are there - and specifically post there - in order to recieve *critique* in order to improve their unfinished works.

When I read here, I make the assumption that the work is finished (assumed critted) and polished and the author is happy with it and considers it a finished work. (past the crit stage) ...


...does that make sense or am I babbling?

[LadyRoisin]

It makes sense, and it's a very excellent point. I think though, some authours (including myself) don't have access to those workshop communities. Maybe we haven't found them yet, or they might be invite only. It's all different, varied reasons.

I know when I post, I post what I believe is a finished work, or finished parts of a WIP. But because I don't have a beta reader as o yet, it's just me eiting, and keeping an eye out for stuff.

Newer people don't often have access to a lot of things a more seasoned writer would. More likely than not, they may not even know that worshop communities exist, or they might be terrified of a place like that too. It can be quite intimidating for a newer author to submitt their work to a place where they know their work will get ripped to shreds and covered in red ink persay. They might not be ready for something like that yet, but would still like to be able to recieve helpful comments in reviews, or be PMed about it, ect. A writer's workshop can be a really scary place for a new person. I know for me personally, I'm way intimidated by places like those. But I love working with someone one on one, and getting help from others in reviews and from the person who beta reads a story or two, but isn't a permanent beta reader.

And I lot of people post their stories up for different reasons, and all reasons have merit. I think when a lot of problems strt is when people assume that others see things the same way as them. I know I always try to consider the viewpoint of others. We all come to these archives and communities for different reasons. Some come to display their work, some want help, some want a little of everything. All that is perfectly fine in my book.

When it comes to reviewing, I think that's WHY it's so hard to know why someoneone isn't getting reviews or not, why people review. Everyone has different opinions, which is great.

I think discussions like this are great, especially for a newer-ish person like m, because t gives you a feel of what others think, and what goes into why they review or don't, ect. So this discussion and others are really helpful in away.

Roisin

[eiranae]

I agree with Sulriel. My reviewing and posting tendencies go along with the scenario she related almost exactly. I just don't find myself willing to give crit on a posted story. This might seem hypocritical of me because I have posted WIPs that are by no means polished to the point I want them to be, but in my defense, I posted them before I joined any writer's workshop.

As far as how I receive reviews, I'll take what I get. I've had the praise and I've had the criticism. Both help me in different ways, and I'm not going to demand one or the other. I've just come to expect the praise for my finished works and the crit for the stuff I post on workshop. I've come to rely so heavily on my workshop buddies and my friendly betas that I just can't imagine posting a story without them anymore.

That's my two cents.

[DarkElfChilde]

As others said, good topic here, Al.

[Sulriel]

[Sulriel]

hahaha... it's just like me. .. to make two long replies and still not answer the question directly.

[Alassante]

LadyRoisin - I think we all have at least one wacko review/reviewer. One of my favorite reviews is a totally off the wall 'wtf???' review. And I quote -

[LadyRoisin]

LOl Alassante that made me laugh too!! The comments I was refering to are REALLY bizzare. Imagine a dyslexic Yoda, who can't spell, and that just did an 8 ball and acid at the same time, then decided to go leave a bunch of reviews for your stories......The comments are THAT bizzare. It's stuff that has absolutely ZERO relevance to what I, or other authors, write. Like I wrote a story about twins, and she left a comment about how yeast was getting everywhere, and I needed to clean it up...I'm not joking!!

Another author wrote a fun story, and this lady, I kid you not, asks the author if she was in that marching movie, and told her to stay away from the easter egg......The story never once mentioned marching, or easter eggs, or eggs of any kind. It's like super bizzare stuff that has no relevance. Half the time you can't even read what she said because the words aren't even put into a proper sentence, or are so badly mispelled you don't know what words they are.

I don't mind funny comments, or comments that are bizarre in a funny way. But if I'm wondering if someone is either certifiably crazy, or is on every drug imaginable....hen it's like....Whoa, no thanks.

[NeumeIndil]

As a writer? Hit me with it, but keep it about the story/writing. I'm not so in love with *any* story that I'll turn down honest opinions just because they don't agree with me, but I also had time to get used to the idea and I know a lot of fic writers haven't. The professor of one particular class allowed whatever we wanted to say with the caveat that we could take what we dished out. Funny how many of them *couldn't*, but I think he did it to teach the sort of compassion <i>cum</i> honesty I try to use while reviewing. If something doesn't work for me, I'm not afraid to say it, but thanks to a few former classmates, I learned how to say it in a more constructive way than "Well, that's the kind of thing I'd expect from <i>you</i>".

My biggest beef with crit, though, is the amount of thought that goes into it; if you're going to express a negative opinion, you'd better have the cojones and courtesy to explain why. People can't decide whether they did well or poorly if you don't offer them points to ponder.

[NancyBrooke]

Oooh! A pop-quiz ... I'm good at these

[NeumeIndil]

[LadyRoisin]

ROTFLOL!!!!!............Classic!

[Alassante]