[varialectio]

Hey, here's a quick little question in regards to Samwise the Brave: would he call Frodo "Master Frodo" OR "Mister Frodo"? I'm writing a fic that has original Samwise dialogue in it and I'm curious about whether he uses one phrase or the other, or both interchangably. Thanks for any help on this.

[NancyBrooke]

A quick perusal of the text says Sam calls him "Mr. Frodo" abreviation and all, and sometimes "Master." Not, I think, Master Frodo. My survey was by no means comprehensive, but probably pretty reliable.

[Andreth]

I have to agree with Nancy. I did a look through and found many places where Sam calls Frodo 'Master' or he is referred to as being Sam's master, but the few places he addressed him fully, it was as Mr. Frodo, and the same thing with Mr. Bilbo. Although everyone else uses the phrase 'Master so-and-so' pretty frequently, from Gandalf to Galadriel to Eomer. Even Sam calls others, like Pippin, Merry and Boromir, Master Boromir, etc... But for Frodo it seems to be Mr. Frodo.

Maybe there's some old distinction between the term Master and Mister that Tolkien was using here, like the difference between 'thee' and 'thou'. I honestly have no idea how to explain the very obvious difference in the usage of titles by Sam concerning Frodo and Bilbo.

One thing I did find, and I don't know if it will be of any interest to you, but I'll post it here just in case - When I was looking through Letters for some reference to the whole master/mister thing (cause I could have sworn I'd seen something in there about it before) I found this description of Sam that I'd never noticed before and thought it was pretty interesting:

"Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irriates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very 'trying'. He is a more representative Hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear; a vulgarity - by which I do not mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' - a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional 'wisdom'. We only meet exceptional hobbits in close companionship - those who had a grace or gift; a vision of beauty, and a reverence for things nobler than themselves, at war with their rustic self-satisfaction. Imagine Sam without his education by Bilbo and his fascination with things Elvish! Not difficult. The Cotton family and the Gaffer, when the 'Travellers' return are a suffiicient glimpse.

Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable - except in his service and loyalty to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt. He plainly did not fully understand Frodo's motives or his distress in the incident of the Forbidden Pool. If he had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tales comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing' said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repetence is blighted and all Frodo's pity (in a sense) is wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.

This is due, of course, to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. He did reach the point of pity at last, but for the good of Gollum too late. If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor, and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentence and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stole the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss."

Anyway, thought that might interest somebody out there. I'd read the Gollum part before and found it interesting, but for some reason just passed over the Sam part totally.


Anna

[varialectio]

Thank you so much for that quote, Andreth! It was very interesting. I'd noticed the same thing in Sam's character-- a sort of willful blindness to other people's (namely Gollum's) emotions and feelings. Sometimes I just wished that he'd smarten up and ease up on Gollum a little: some of his comments to him were rather cruel, IMO. Still, caution *was *warranted in light of what Gollum actually did, stuff like killing babies and eating them... But I digress...

I suppose that it was a little lazy of me to not just look up the info in my own LOTR edition, but I'm addicted to asking questions of other, more knowledgeable Tolkien fans and I succumbed to the temptation. I apologize if I'm wasting anyone's time with this line of questioning, but then again I might never have seen that quote from Mr. Tolkien himself if I hadn't! Thank you for sharing it with me; I've enjoyed writing dialogue for Sam (and especially the interaction scenes between Sam and Grima, difficult as they were!), and I actually found writing for him to be perhaps a bit easier than writing for Frodo or especially Grima. Sam's speech is a bit more 'rustic' or rural than the other hobbits, so I can actually use contractions in it! Fun stuff.

Thanks.

[NancyBrooke]

[SilverMoonLady]