[sindohte]

Discussion of the Quenta Silmarillion - Of the Beginning of Days will begin officially on Tuesday 4/6

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[BittenBuggy]

And the real fun stuff starts! Hurrah! *Loves Ingwe*

Ahem.. so... anyone else?

[Meleka]

7th of April

....and pip hasn't started yet, am very naughty . RL getting in the way of fun again......

Should be right by Friday 9th.

[sindohte]

I'm about halfway through the chapter. I was actually a good girl and brought the Silm with me to work today. However I am sure that I won't get a chance to read it until this evening. But I shall make a concerted effort to get it finished up tonight.

Is everyone else in the same boat? Being busy with real life stuff?

[BittenBuggy]

Ok, somebody discuss!! I will start with this:

“Then Tulkas slept, being weary and content, and Melkor deemed that his hour had come”

That concept has always been interesting to me. What do you guys think it means for the Ainur to ‘sleep’? And do you think Tulkas could have prevented what was to come, even if he hadn’t been sleeping? Since none of the Valar perceived the darkness through the light of Illuin?


“Manwe has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace.”

Personally, I love that passage. I like the thought of such a selfless ruler, one truly worth of his position.

“And in that time of dark Yavanna also was unwilling utterly to forsake the Outer Lands; for all things that grow are dear to her, and she mourned for the works that she had begun in Middle-Earth.”
“And Orome, tamer of beasts, would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kindom of Melkor, and his white horse Nahar shone like silver in the shadows.”

I have always thought it was interesting that Tolkien picked these two characters out of all the others to say still traveled into Middle Earth. (Granted, Ulmo did not/has not EVER forsaken ME completely) What do you think makes them so different that their interests lie elsewhere?

“Then the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his folden hooves, and in the twilight of the world Orome would sound the Valaroma his great horn upon the plains of Arda; whereat the mountains echoed and the shadows of evil fled away, and Melkor himself quailed in Utumno, foreboding the wrath to come.”

My gosh! I never ceased to be amazed at the detail and emotion Tolkien can evoke when desribing sound. Isn’t it encredible? I can just feel the shaking earth and hear that horn when I read that passage. Brilliant, brilliant!

“For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather than their elders and their chieftains than their masters.”

That is a very important concept in general, but especially to the rest of the story. Manwe would not force the Noldor to stay in Valinor if they wanted to leave. He simply counseled and warned them.

“The Quendi shall be that fairest of all the earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have a greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.” Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.”

Excellent passage. And something people REALLY miss when they don’t read the Silm! When you read the Lord of the Rings, you get the impression that the elves have it so much better, and the race of men is inferior. Which in fact, its not, just different. Illuvatar instilled a desire to ‘seek beyond the world’ and ‘shape their lives’ instead of the contentment he gave to the elves. To me, that means that Men will achieve much more because they have that fire and ambition in their hearts. Their lives are not tied to Arda, and their journey doesn’t end with death.

Brilliant, brilliant concept. It is perfect insight into humanity and appreciation for what we are.


Well, I’ll end on that note, anyone else have anything to say? Come on people, you know you want to!

[Anna]

Sorry BB! I wanted to post sooner, but the hubby insisted on some quality time...and who am I to deny him that?! Especially since he was so...hmm..convincing...

About Tulkas; I don´t think the Ainur sleeps the way we do. I think it´s more like resting in a sort of coma-like state of mind. I don´t know... Well, something like that, anyway.
And no, I don´t think he would´ve been able to prevent anything had he been awake. As you said; the Valar didn´t percieve the darkness throgh the light of Illuin. I don´t think they, in spite of it all, could really comprehend what Melkor was capable of. They could of course understand it on a rational level, but perhaps not emotionally. The way people sometimes refuse to believe something nasty, you know.
Does this make any sense at all?

That´s it for now! I have to take my daughter to day-care. Will post more later.
Bye for now!

[Anna]

Ok, I´m back!

Hmm...Yavanna and Oromë... Perhaps the others were content with or blinded (distracted) by the beauty of the Blessed Realm. Maybe, as immortal (and holy) beings, they didn´t notice time passing by, thus not realising that the plants and animals of Middle-earth needed care and attention. I mean; Valinor "was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed". But to Yavanna, being the Giver of Fruits, it must´ve been unthinkable to desert all the growing things in ME and let them fade away. I´ve always thought of her as a mother to all trees, flowers and so on. In my mind she was giving a little piece of her self every time she planted anything. How could she not go to ME and mend what Melkor had ruined?

As for Oromë; in the Valaquenta it´s stated that he "loved the lands of Middle-earth, and he left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor. Well, there you have it, I think. All of the Valar had different personalities. Maybe Oromë just happened to like to hunt down monsters and release some steam.

Can you tell I´ve given Yavanna a lot more thought than Oromë? Yavanna is actually one of my absolute favourites. Perhaps because all my plants die no matter what I do, and I hope she could come and convince them to live.

And as for the others; well, Manwë and Varda were busy sitting on Taniquetil watching over the earth. Aulë was busy making things and Ulmo... well Ulmo is Ulmo. I really love him! I absolutely love the ocean, though it scares me quite a lot, to tell you the truth.

"In the deep places he gives thought to music great and terrible; and the echo of that music runs through all the veins of the world in sorrow and in joy; for if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth."

My god, do I love that passage! How can you not adore Ulmo after reading that?! Hmm...how can you not adore Tolkien for writing it, I mean...

Yes, I definitely agree with you, BB, concerning elves and men. If you don´t read the Sil it is easy to misunderstand the reason behind the elves melancholy. I mean; who wants to be immortal? Honestly? Think about it for a while. I know I wouldn´t! I get bored on a rainy sunday afternoon, for crissakes!
Seriousely, it IS a brilliant concept, just as you pointed out, BB. It´s difficult to write something that doesn´t seem slightly silly, when posting after you... You say it so well!

[BittenBuggy]

In regards to your Orome comments, I totally agree with him letting off steam via pounding evil stuffs. Orome was 'less in might than Tulkas, but greater in anger' it said something like that, and I'm too lazy to go look it up right now! But Orome strikes me as the strong silent type who snaps often. At least he found a positive outlook for all the anger (I'm analysing a fictional characters psyche... that’s just strange)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who wouldn't want to be immortal. Granted, I think living to about 500 would be fine (which means in ME, I would have been a dwarf.. That’s funny, and ironic). Because think of all you could LEARN if you lived that long. It boggles my mind.

Tolkien was so good at portraying the positive aspects of the human race. He didn't make elves and say "Hey, all you humans, see what you're missing?" He made elves and he made men, and gave us this incredible passage:

"Mortality was given to the Atani as a gift "which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."

Incredible.. my most favourite concept of Tolkien's writings ever.. can you tell?

[Anna]

Oh yes, that´s exactly the same, and ONLY, reason I´ve ever wished for immortality! Think of all the books I could read! Whenever I´m in a bookstore or at the library I get all stressed out thinking of all the books I´ll never have the time to read. I know I´m wierd...

But 500 years sounds a lot better, though. Mortality is truly a gift, at least when it happens to yourself and not your loved ones.

BTW, loved your "The Silmarillion In Thirty Pages Or Less"!

[BittenBuggy]

Awwww.. Thanks! That poor little project has been on the burner far too long! **Runs to so some more chapter summaries*

[LuthienTinuviel]

Immortality? Gimme around 300 years, and I'm happy. I mean, living too long would make me one patronizing person everyone would simply hate. Imagine saying, "Well, dear... 300 years ago someone did exactly what you are doing now, you naughty dear you, and this is what he truly got himself into...etcetcetc..."

And imagine the possibility of a 300 year-old serial killer who would learn and managed to outwit and kill off ALL experienced and good detectives who were the only ones who can stop him... *shudder*

Maybe I went a tad too far.

"Mortality was given to the Atani as a gift "which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy."

How true.

[Anna]

Hey, what are we reading next? "Of Aulë and Yavanna" is such a short chapter. Could we read that one, and "Of the coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor"?

What do you think?

[sindohte]

Anna,

My tentative answer to your question would be yes. I'm still kicking myself that I forgot and left my copy of the Silm at work this weekend. Once I get into work tomorrow, I will give everyone a definitive answer and I must finally get around to posting something on this particular section.

S