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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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 Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 11:25 am Post subject: Silmarillion Reading Group - Of Thingol and Melian... |
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Discussion of the Quenta Silmarillion - Of Thingol and Melian will begin officially on Monday, May 17
Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.
Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Alrighty guys... I got tired of waiting on Sind to put this up, so I did it myself 
The chapter 'Of Thingol and Melain' is not my favorite, but it is beautiful in its own right and brings up several interesting points.
'She [Melain] was akin before the world was made to Yavanna herself'
This I found very interesting. It shows us that the Ainur had somewhat of 'family groups' and relations with one another. It can be speculated that this is a product of 'elven' thought. Such as it is that our 'God' is a 'He.' So is classification of this sort, whether it be gender or family relation a true statement about the Ainur/Any Deity or is it human/elven perception. Basically, were the Ainur really 'akin' or was it just a convenient way for the elves to show bonds, much as they would themselves?
Also, another point on this quote. If Melain is 'akin' to Yavanna, why is she not one of the Valar? (Obviously because she is of lesser power) I find the hierarchy of the Ainur fascinating. 
'She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwe came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling starts above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.'
This seems extremely intriguing. What exactly does that mean? Did Elwe manage to go years, perhaps centuries without food or water? Did he ever get a potty break? I've always chosen to look at it as Melian sort of 'froze' him with the spell. We have already read that they: 'looked upon the Elves and were filled with wonder, as thought they were beings sudden and marvelous and unforeseen; for so it shall ever be with the Valar.' So I think Melian just wanted an elf for herself, to 'look upon with wonder' all she wanted.  But truly, the Valar thought the Elves were beautiful beings, though it is hard to comprehend one of the Ainur desiring to take a lesser being (even an elf) as her husband.
'But of her came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Illuvatar before Ea.'
Amazing! Again, that she would choose to not only wed him, but bear his child. This might have been hard on her, remaining as one of the Children rather than the bliss should could have had in Aman within the Gardens of Lorien. It is also said that she 'lent great power Thingol' in the way of her Girdle that protected his kingdom. What a cool thing to say about your ancestors though...
Aragorn: You know, my great great...great grandmother was a goddess.
Arwen: Yeah, so was mine.
Sorry, had to interject the incest comment there
'And of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairst of all the children that was or shall ever be.'
Oh, I love lines like that.. They are just so prophetic and foreshadowing. Simply beautiful. I find it very sweet that Tolkien makes this comment and then on his gravestone he names himself and his wife as 'Beren and Luthien.' He, the wandering, ragged mere mortal man, blessed with the love of the most beautiful elf ever in all his tales. It is so heartwarming...
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 1621
Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you dearest BB. It seems as if my Jedi mind trick has worked.  I will try to post my comments tonight, but the first thing that pops into my head was how Thingol was so enchanted with the sheer beauty of Melian that he forget about everything and how they just stood there what could have very well been years lost in each other. Then the bit about how Thingol never saw the light of the two trees, but that by looking into the face of Melian it was the same thing. Very beautiful romantic stuff.
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BittenBuggy
Joined: 27 Dec 2003
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Location: Busy Being the Queen Of Everything.. And Trying to Catch the Yoda-Copter
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| sindohte wrote: | | Thank you dearest BB. It seems as if my Jedi mind trick has worked. |
You frighten me with that stuff Sind... I'm better off just being manipulated in ignorance 
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-The Queen of Everything - so dubed by Aerin
-"My ultimate fantasy is to entice a man to my bedroom, put a gun to his head and say, 'Make babies or die'."
-"The Pope! how many divisions has he got?" - Stalin |
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sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
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Location: Rubbing up against an Elf
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm really a harmless little bit of a girl BBmatic.  No one has been harmed yet during a demonstration of my Jedi mind tricks.
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| BittenBuggy wrote: | Basically, were the Ainur really 'akin' or was it just a convenient way for the elves to show bonds, much as they would themselves?
Also, another point on this quote. If Melain is 'akin' to Yavanna, why is she not one of the Valar? (Obviously because she is of lesser power) I find the hierarchy of the Ainur fascinating. |
When he started writing this, Tolkien had the Ainur separated off into actual family groups. If you go back and read the Books of Lost Tales and in some of the other HoMe books, it has Ilmare and Eonwe as being the children of Manwe and Varda, Orome as being the son of Yavanna (I think that's right), and even Morgoth got in on the action, getting busy with an ogress and having a son named Kosomot, who later became Gothmog the Balrog.
But then Tolkien went another route and everyone just became 'brethren' (although it does specifically say that Melkor and Manwe were brothers in the thought of Eru or something like that) and I read it to be brethren in a more spiritual sense, like monks and such. And each Valar had a group of Maiar who served them, but the Melian/Yavanna thing, I'm not sure about. In some places of HoMe it says that Melian served Yavanna, but then later changes it to her having served Vana and Este. So maybe the mention here in the Silm of her being akin to Yavanna was just a slip up, or maybe it had a deeper meaning. I'm not sure. 
| Quote: | 'She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwe came to her and took her hand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling starts above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.'
This seems extremely intriguing. What exactly does that mean? Did Elwe manage to go years, perhaps centuries without food or water? Did he ever get a potty break? I've always chosen to look at it as Melian sort of 'froze' him with the spell. |
I think you're right here about them being in some kind of Maia-love suspended animation because there had to have been many years that passed while they stood there with each other and I don't see how Thingol's body could have endured otherwise. Unless he was just sustained by luv.
And for Melian being attracted to an Elven form, it says that the Ainur routinely chose to 'clothe' themselves in the forms of the Kings and Queens of the children of Eru, so there must have been something about those forms that they found attractive. And according to my Thingol muse, he is most assuredly not a lesser Elf. 
I have to agree with you on this chapter, BB. It's one of my favorites and very romantic to ponder. I've always been very intrigued by the story of Thingol and Melian and all the whys and wherefores. One of my favorite points is that it says Melian lent great power to Thingol. To me it seems like she helped him become more angelic and he helped her become more Incarnate. A very overlooked story, those two. |
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 665
Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Short but sweet (not to mention incredibly romantic) and with definite echoes of the story of Beren and Luthien.
All I can say is that so little is given of their story, that it makes it a perfect playground for writing fanfic.
I did feel terrible for Elwe's people who spent so long looking for him. Very tragic.
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