[NancyBrooke]

There are orcs, goblins, and the Uruk-Hai (also Uruks).

I think orcs and goblins are the same, and Uruks/Uruk-hai are larger, black, come from Mordor and can withstand sunlight (though they might not like it). There were also Uruks/Uruk-hai serving Saruman.

So, is the whole spiel from the movie ("by foul craft Saruman has crossed men and goblins ...") a fabrication for the movie? Or did a different race of Orcs come out of Isengard?

So confused ...

[BittenBuggy]

I just realized.... I have no idea.



Anna help!

[Andreth]

I saw the BB Batsignal calling for help and came as quickly as I could.

The short answer is, no - Saruman was copying off Morgoth.

From Morgoth's Ring - "Finally there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing Men-orcs, large and cunning and Orc-men, treacherous and vile."

The larger Orcs that came out of Mordor would have been the same, most likely, because Sauron would have known this breeding method as well. Saruman's Men-orcs that look more Man than Orc were talked about in The Scouring of the Shire.

In later notes, Tolkien says that Orcs and Goblins are the same and the names are interchangeable, but IIRC there are specified differences between Orcs and Goblins in The Hobbit, but I don't remember exactly where.

Hope that helped.


Anna

[Viv]

[queenoftheshire]

I've always been completly ignorant on this subject...

Orc...Uruks...everything in that subject matter...

Can anybody just give me the basic info on 'em?

[Andreth]

[Andreth]

[Andreth]

A-ha! I took a look through my old emails and found one from a friend, Larry Kuenning over at the Prancing Pony, when we were discussing the orc/goblin situation. Smart guy, that one. Here's what he said:

"Also, The Hobbit has a preface, not included in all editions (I'm
getting it here from The Annotated Hobbit), which says:

'(2) _Orc_ is not an English word. It occurs in one or two
places but is usually translated _goblin_) (or _hobgoblin_ for
the larger kinds). _Orc_ is the hobbits' form of the name given
at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all
with our _orc_, _ork_, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.'

Possibly one of the best ways to show their usual equivalence is
to compare the Hobbit references to Azog (ch 1), his son Bolg (ch
17), and "the dwarf and goblin war" (ch 3) to those in LotR App
A.III (where the war becomes "the War of the Dwarves and the
Orcs"). Related to this is a note by Christopher in HoME #12
(p. 249 n. 35), which begins:

"35. The War of the Dwarves and Orcs entered the history at this
time. In very difficult scribbled notes at the end of T3 my
father asked himself: 'When were the Dwarf and Goblin wars?
When did Moria become finally desolate?' ..."

But in Hobbit ch 5 (revised riddle game) the word "orcs" seems to
be used as if they were a specially large variety of goblins:
"'A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones,' thought
Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the
mountains, go along at a great speed stooping low with their
hands almost on the ground."

The index entry for "Goblins" in HoME #2 says: "Frequently used
as alternative term to Orcs ... but sometimes distinguished ...."

Despite the variants, I think the intention in LotR is to use
"orcs" as the standard term covering everything that is called
either "goblins" or "orcs" in The Hobbit."

[BittenBuggy]

Amazing.

[NancyBrooke]

Really, I haven't been studying up on Orcs ... just thinking about them.

Again, it relates to this Battle of Osgiliath fic thing I'm working toward. I wondered, if the Gondorians were fighting Orcs, would the battle necessarily have to take place at night? After all, the Battle of the Pellenor had to take place under cover of darkness in order for the full army to participate.

Now, Boromir implies, during the council of Elrond, that the force that assailed them suddenly at Osgiliath was also composed of Easterlings and Southrons, which is why the Gondorians were outnumbered and defeated. So, the battle could have been started in the day and then gone on through the night or whatever.

I guess my real question is, when fighting Orcs, are you pretty much waging a night time campaign?

Sounds like, not, since the Uruks, Orc/Men Men/Orcs could withstand daylight.

Of course, it would be much more dramatic to have them fighting at night, fic-wise.

[NancyBrooke]

[BittenBuggy]

[NancyBrooke]

[Roisin]

I remember reading somewhere that "goblins" was the word used for Orcs that lived underground, but it could have been in a movie book.

Roisin

[queenoftheshire]

Ok...ok... I have no idea why I've wondered about this...

But are there female orcs? Or not?


I've just been confusing myself on the subject for like the last 2 weeks when it just popped up in my head.