[Haleth]

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[BittenBuggy]

Andreth sent that to me! I was amazed And yes, after years of Tolkien geekdom, I didn't know it existed. I loved it, to say the least... definatly up my ally.

I especially liked the explination of souls going to and from the Halls of Mandos

[Moralanqua]

But its is vague and contradicts itself - specifically regarding rebirthing and parents.

Plus = was it so hard to just say that elves had sex?

[Haleth]

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[BittenBuggy]

But we know Tolkien must have had sex at least a couple times in his life... And you can either choose to find that comforting, or sickening.

[Haleth]

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[Ellbee]

I really think a lot of all the sex and marriage stuff that Tolkien wrote is wide open to fannish tweaking, and I’ll tell you why:

1) I argue that one does not even have to consider the works that Tolkien didn’t publish as canon at all. Much of it was unfinished, contradictory, and edited by someone other than the author. I don’t necessarily think it’s binding. I like to find out as much about his writing as I can, because it helps color the world of Middle-earth, but I feel free to pick and choose what I consider The Truth.

2) Tolkien liked to pretend he was writing history rather than fantasy fiction. He writes, "…seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them." Well, you know, seldom did I see any mention of sex or rape or adultery in my history books, but you can’t convince me they didn’t happen.

3) This history is supposedly written by men, and he himself warns against taking man’s ideas about elves as absolute truth. "It must be remembered, however, that it does not necessarily follow that 'True Information' concerning Arda (such as the ancient Eldar might have received from the Valar) must agree with Men's present theories."

4) Too much just absolutely contradicts the puritanical view of elf sex. Laws and Customs says elves wed only once, but what about, who was it, Finwe? And nobody nobody nobody nobody has ever addressed the whole Aredhel/Eol issue. If you take the rape version, well, that completely negates the elves-don’t-rape and elves-die-when-they’re-raped theories (without even going into what Celebrian likely suffered and lived through.) If you go with the other version, the one where Aredhel was “not wholly unwilling” I think that contradicts the sex “canon” even more. Besides the fact that that is creepily close to “she said no, but she really wanted it,” it makes a nonsense of elf sex being some sort of shining, magical, mystical soul-bonding thing, if one of the parties only kinda wants it. It makes sex just sex and marriage just an agreement, and that, ladies, is why I feel writers are free to have elves banging like bunnies.

Now anyone who wants to write elves as being all pure and above lust and sex and all that, that’s fine, that’s great. What I object to, and I don’t believe anyone here has done it, is the finger waving purists who say, “You shall not write elves thus.” Actually, no one has said it to me, I can’t imagine why not, but lord knows I’ve seen it. What they are actually saying is that they have chosen to ignore certain bits of Tolkieniana that contradicts their interpretation, which is totally and completely their right, I do it myself. But what they have no business doing is insisting that all other writers abide by their interpretation. I don’t think so.

I hope this wasn’t too ranty, but I had this stuck in my mind and had to get it ut. If it sounds like I take this all too seriously, nothing could be further from the truth.

-Ell

[Andreth]

Ell made some very good points, all of which I agree with. I think LACE is one of those 'to each his own' things.

I don't consider it binding because it wasn't finished, it was abandoned, and Christopher Tolkien spends a page and a half discussing the inconsistencies of it, after which he does make the statement about it being a "comprehensive, if obscure, declaration of his thought *at that time* on the fundamental aspect of the nature of the Quendi", but in the list of attributes that follows, sex and marriage aren't named. "power of the incarnate fea in relation to the body; the consuming of the body by the fea; the destiny of Elvish spirits.....the meaning of death for such beings, and the consequences of the Marring of Arda by Melkor."

The essay itself makes it sound as though the Elves were cool and controlled, little affected by the desire, but Feanor, his sons and a good portion of the Noldor were proven to be affected by desire in the form of anger and vengence - love and sexual desire can't be too far-fetched either. It's just my opinion, but I think Tolkien saw the holes in the line of reasoning in some parts of this essay - he went through several ideas for Elvish 'rebirth' in various places - and he abandoned it without resolving it. But then again, he might have come back to it later and not changed a thing. Who knows?

It's one of those things people interpret differently. Like how a lot of people believe the essay states the Elves lost their desire for sex after so many years and just didn't have it anymore, but I don't read it that way. To me it sounds like the desire for childbearing wanes after a certain age, not the desire for sex.

One of the proposed titles for the essay was Aelfwine's preamble, who was a mortal visitor to Eressea, and Christopher Tolkien points out that "it is clear in any case that it is presented as the work, not of one of the Eldar, but of a Man..." Like Ellbee pointed out, Tolkien said Men weren't all that reliable as historians.

In another part of Morgoth's Rings, under Myths Transformed, Tolkien is talking about the Valar's motives and says we can't always trust the historical documents because they were written by people who were touched by the Shadow, that being Morgoth's evil left which marred Arda.

Besides, if the Elves were being observed by a guy who was writing everything down, I figure they were on their best behavior and there weren't a whole lot of them pinching women's butts or having sex out in open meadows or the town square.

So my post ended up being a lot longer than I intended. These are just my reasons for taking it the way I do - I have absolutely no problem with anyone who takes it to be literal and cut and dried. I think anything in the Histories of Middle-earth is fair game.

[Anna]

Couldn´t have said it better myself, Ellbee!

[Anna]

Ooo, Andreth makes a good point too! I quite agree.

[Panneth]

If anyone has a full copy of LACE, I would greatly appreciate it as I'm still working my way through HoME and I'm stuck at 5. I've only got web addresses somewhere for various extracts.

I think one thing we have to take into consideration is the time of his life when Tolkien wrote the LACE issue. There'a a lot of evidence that as he grew older Tolkien got my prudish and took out some of the more sexual references in his books, the draft of the Sil especially. The examples of this I remember off the top of my head are:

When Luthien and Beren enter the fortress of Morgoth, the original text says Luthien danced Morgoth to sleep, which I find a far more sensual act then her just singing him off to sleep which was the corrected version, I believe.

In the essay on Galadriel and Celeborn, they were originally described as lovers in Doriath before they married. This was scrapped.

And as for Eol, the phrase "she was not unwilling" was added to the narrative when he enchants Aradhel.

As for my writing, I'm trying to stick with LACE as much as I can with my current piece. It's hard because I know I would get more reviews if they were all having dirty, smutty sex in every chapter. I think that's the way at least on FFN. But I'm writing my piece according to the rules I want to use so I've made my bed and I must lie in it. I'm enjoying myself just as much as if I was writing a smut fest!

[Ellbee]

[Andreth]

[Andreth]

[Panneth]