[sindohte]

Discussion on the chapter - Of Men will officially begin on Monday 8/16.

Andreth/Anna will begin the discussion of this chapter.

Anyone wandering by this thread should feel free to raise questions or make comments.

Please try to keep the comments on this thread strictly related to discussion of the Silm.

[Andreth]

Okay, I'll try to keep this summary a little shorter so that I hopefully won't overwhelm everyone and you'll DISCUSS the chapter this time. And luckily this is a short chapter, so maybe I really will be able to be brief for a change.

We have the coming of Men in this chapter (I always liked the sound of that ), awakened at the first rising of the Sun now that the Valar have finally decided to make a light that will benefit the entire world instead of just Valinor. The light of the Sun awakens the sleeping Men, like it was a sign they had been waiting for.

Because of this I feel that Yavanna was right in the last chapter - that the Valar were not doing the will of Eru by ignoring the rest of the world and holing up in Valinor. Then they have to get the kick in the butt of the Trees being destroyed to jolt them out of their complacency and put them back on track. I don't know if the destruction of the Trees was in the Music, but I think Eru meant for a light such as the Sun to come before Men rose from their sleep.

The Valar don't contact Men, maybe to avoid repeating what they had done with the Elves, which many of the Valar felt to have been a mistake. But now the Valar go to the opposite extreme and Men are afraid of the Valar and don't understand why they do the things they do. In my opinion, this also leaves them more susceptible to Morgoth's influences and lies.

"In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater widsom, skill and beauty" At this time Elves and Men are physically alike (part of the basis for the argument of Elves not having pointed ears), but the Elves surpassed Men in intelligence and looks - and the Elves who had lived in Valinor surpassed the Elves who had remained in Middle-earth. Except for the Sindar who lived in Doriath with Melian the Maia.

There were physical differences between the Elves and Men - Elves were not affected by sickness and their bodies were hardier, where as Men were more easily destroyed by illness or injury.

Sunlight didn't seem to sit well with the Elves. With the coming of the Sun and Men the Elves who remained in Middle-earth began to wane and fade. Which again leaves one to wonder - were the Elves meant to be in Valinor or Middle-earth? Perhaps they were eventually meant to live in Valinor but the Valar interfered and brought them too soon instead of leaving them to come eventually on their own? The Elves' bodies weren't suited to the passage of time in the Years of the Sun and they preferred moonlight and starlight to the sunlight, so from the rising of the Sun the days of the Elves in Middle-earth began counting down.

[sindohte]

[Anna]

Again; I know I´m late in posting. My only excuse is a combination of too much work, too little sleep and a our annual Festival in my hometown.

Ok, the Valar really ticks me off sometimes! ...'they left it for long untended, and the lordship of Morgoth was uncontested save by the valour of the Noldor'...
What is with those guys?! Why in the name of Eru didn´t they do something about Melkor? Were they really that blind or were they just plain stupid?! I mean -- they must´ve known by then that he was up to no good. Didn´t they grow tired of making mistake after mistake?
Hey, why not leave the Noldor with the task of dealing with Morgoth? After all, they really know how to handle him.

Sorry, I am calm now. It´s just so damn frustrating! Aaargh!

Well, yes, hmm...what else? Oh yeah, I like that we get to know some of the 'nicknames' the human race were given by the Elves. The Usurpurs? The Heavy-handed? The Children of the Sun and the Inscrutable are better, I think.

[Haleth]

Just to play devil's advodate (because someone has to), didn't Eru expressly forbid the Valar from having direct dealings with the Second Born?

I can't remember if this was before or after they had meddled with the elves.

[sindohte]

I think the restraining order went into effect after the Valar totally mucked things up with the Elves.

[Haleth]

According to Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Eru spoke to Men directly. But he would not give them the knowledge that they craved as quickly as they desired it and hence were vulnerable to Morgoth's deceptions.

This gives me pause. Could it be that Eru simply failed to understand human curiosity? How could the Maker not understand his own creations?

The Valar display the same complete lack of comprehension about human character. They put Numenor within sight of the Undying Lands, issue a decree that the Numenorean's must never sail west so far that they can no longer see Numenor and they actually expected them to obey? What surprises me isn't that Ar-Pharason landed in Valinor. What surprises me is that it took so long for someone to actually do it.

The more I think about it, the more they all seem like inexperienced parents.

[sindohte]

The Eru and the Valar could not understand human curiosity in spite of being omnipotent and omniscient, because they were not "human." They did not have to worry about the normal aches and pains of mortal existence. And the thought of trying to cram in as many experiences as possible into a finite number of years would be something they would not understand.