[dolarabee]

Anyone been reading on this or written about it? Canon or fanon info welcome.

I'm just trying to see if in Tolkien's world we should detached ourselves from our conceived ideas of customs and expectations of our universe's royalty and commoneers alike from centuries past.

I know we often resort to old English for Rohirric names and idea about their tongue, but is it the right thing to do - that is, look at our history's past - when one wonders about ideals and values peoples of ME might hold?

Cheers,

do.

[Andreth]

There's not much about Dol Amroth society that I've seen, other than it's origins being a bit like Gondor - a combination of Elvish and Numenorean. Music was obviously important there since they had some kick ass harpists known as the best around.

About using history as a basis, I'll use the example you brought up, of using Old English for Rohirric. In the Appendix F of RotK Tolkien specifically says that he used Old English for the language of Rohan, but warns against reading too much into that:

"This linguistic procedure does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances, a simpler and more primitive people living in contact with a higher and more venerable culture, and occupying lands that had once been part of its domain."

To me, Tolkien warns against this comparison because of the situation with the ancient English after the fall of the Roman Empire and why they called that time immediately following the Dark Ages - the country was in upheaval, writing and art basically bit the dust, and society was forced to start from scratch. The society of Rohan isn't comparable to that primitive level and I think this is why Tolkien warns against it, but that's just my opinion.

I think the mistake people make in using history as a reference is that they tend to focus solely on England and their culture. Tolkien uses historical comparisons in his comments about Middle-earth and more than just England. He calls the horsemen of Rohan 'Homeric', he compares Gondor to Byzantium, the renewed kingdom under Aragorn as being "more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome than anything devised by a 'Nordic' ", he compares the Numenorean/Gondorian obsession with venerating the dead with Tombs as being akin to the Egyptians. Much of the basis for the tales comes from Nordic and Finnish folklore. Tolkien warns against the pretences of 'Courtly Love' to a reviewer who criticised him for the relationship between Eowyn and Faramir:

"Criticism of the speed of the relationship or 'love' of Faramir and Eowyn. In my experience feelings and decisions ripen very quickly (as measured by mere clock-time, which is actually not justly applicable) in periods of great stress, and especially under the expectation of imminent death. And I do *not* think that persons of high estate and breeding need all the petty fencing and approaches in matters of 'love'. This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc less corrupt) and nobler."

So, to me, the mistake isn't with using historical references, it's with people limiting themselves to what kind of historical references can be used. Tolkien took his influences from many different cultures and peoples, and if you're constructing societal behavior in a story you could do the same.

Either use historical references in whole, use historical references as a basis, or just make up your own, like Tolkien did. While he may have used all these cultures as a basis, Middle-earth was still Middle-earth - not one of our cultures or societies sent back through time.

Anna

[dolarabee]

Thank you, Andreth.

[Roisin]

Courtly love wouldn't really have a place in a society where men and women married for love, most of the time.

Roisin

[dolarabee]

So are you saying there were no marriages to create or strenghten alliances between kingdoms? Or that, say, virginial brides weren't a necessity to later prove a king's son and heir was truly his? (not that the chick couldn't still cuckold him once married and bedded but you know what I mean...)

do.

[Robbie]

Cockold - sounds kinky and exciting and I wondered if we could try it some time....




...until I looked it up in the dictionary, that is. Now I'd rather dodge that one, thank-you very much.

[Robbie]

And just as an after thought, how come that word ended up in your vocabulary, my dear?

[dolarabee]

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it, my love?

You crack me up.

::mwah::

do.

[Robbie]

I'll just get worried if you come home with flowers tonight...

(But we do need milk, to go with the chocolate cake. We're right out - only just enough for the cheese sauce!)

Now, back to topic. You were talking about Courtney Love?

[Roisin]

Oh no, I'm not saying there were no political marriages. In fact I'm getting ready to write a story that relies on that subject. I'm just saying that it wasn't as much the rule as it was in medieval Europe.

Also, Christianity was a big influence on the courtly love tradition.

Roisin