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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:19 am Post subject: Canon Issues |
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I have two questions.
1. What is the birth order of Haldir and his brothers? I have read fics that go either way, but if someone has a definitive answer, it would be extremely helpful.
2. I know that as a race, the elves were not violent towards each other or the lesser races, only towards the minions of Sauron. But as with all people, is it possible that some could deviate from the norm? I do not recall any instances of this happening, but I know that they were a passionate race in their younger years. What if, say an ellon wanted a particular elleth, and she said no. Would it be possible for him to try to any means possible to obtain what he wants?
Rous
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:15 am Post subject: |
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As to Haldir and Co. I have no clue.
As to your scond question:
If you are talking about rape then nope.
From what I can tell, rape killed the victim. It was such a bad experience that the Fea fled the Hroa.
I was wondering something along these lines myself, was there any crime in elf societies? I'll move this to another thread...
Inglor
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Canon Issues |
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| Rous wrote: | I have two questions.
1. What is the birth order of Haldir and his brothers? I have read fics that go either way, but if someone has a definitive answer, it would be extremely helpful.
2. I know that as a race, the elves were not violent towards each other or the lesser races, only towards the minions of Sauron. But as with all people, is it possible that some could deviate from the norm? I do not recall any instances of this happening, but I know that they were a passionate race in their younger years. What if, say an ellon wanted a particular elleth, and she said no. Would it be possible for him to try to any means possible to obtain what he wants?
Rous |
It's never said what the birth order of the three brothers was. There's very little said about them anywhere, in fact.
As for the Elves not being violent, I've got two words for you - The Silmarillion. Granted, everyone considered the behavior of those Elves to be atrocious, but it still happened. Tolkien seemed to have made exceptions for lots of rules in his world.
In some versions of the Silm, Eol took Aredhel to wife 'by force' but it was later changed to say that she wasn't completely unwilling. But Eol did use magic and trickery to lure her in. So it obviously wasn't above some Elves to get a female they wanted by less than honorable means.
Then we have LACE where Tolkien says 'Seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them', which again we have the word 'seldom' - another one of Tolkien's loopholes.
I don't know that I've ever been convinced of the idea that all Elves die when they're raped. That seems to be the popular consensus, but what the quote actually says is, "Among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed."
It says, 'no record of any among the Elves that *took another's spouse* by force' and then the last sentence says that the Eldar can at once read whether another is wed or unwed- what about Elves who weren't married at the time?
I've always read this as meaning Elves who were already married wouldn't survive a rape because their spirits were already forever bound to another, so what about those who weren't wed? (And just for the record, I also don't think that sex=marriage among the Elves. I think it was the vows *and* the sex - like a marriage and its consummation. But that's just me.) |
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:01 am Post subject: |
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I knew I could depend on you to pop up with an answer. Birth order: I am happy to hear that. Kinda leaves open territory.
The scenario I am thinking of is not what you are describing. He decides he wants her, she is not interested, at all. Neither are wedded. When he tries to get a little too intimate for her tastes, (she is way too young, anyway) she introduces him to her kneecap. In response, he slaps her. It erupts into a struggle from there. Is this beyond the bounds of credibility?
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inglor
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:09 am Post subject: |
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She is amazing isn't she
Inglor
 to the knowledge Goddess
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Rous
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Undoubtedly. It is amazing. Just ask a question, and there she is. Not to say that others are not just as helpful or knowledgeable, but, I know she can be depended on.
Rous
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:15 am Post subject: |
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PS:
He also said that elves thought that marriage was the natural way of things and yet there are quite a few prominent Elf Lords who remained unmarried or at least no mention of a wife. Gil-Galad, Fingon(if you go by him not being GilGalad's father) Beleg, Mablung, Cirdan, Ecthelion, Glorfindel...
Like Andreth said, PLENTY of loopholes
Inglor
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inglor
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Rous wrote: | I knew I could depend on you to pop up with an answer. Birth order: I am happy to hear that. Kinda leaves open territory.
The scenario I am thinking of is not what you are describing. He decides he wants her, she is not interested, at all. Neither are wedded. When he tries to get a little too intimate for her tastes, (she is way too young, anyway) she introduces him to her kneecap. In response, he slaps her. It erupts into a struggle from there. Is this beyond the bounds of credibility? |
Sounds like quite the cad, does she have an older brother? 
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:20 am Post subject: |
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*dances around in gleeful delight* I LOVE loopholes, and plotholes and potholes. *lookes around sheepishly* I had best stop before I get myself into trouble. I will hie myself off to work. No PC to toy with.
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| inglor wrote: | | Rous wrote: | I knew I could depend on you to pop up with an answer. Birth order: I am happy to hear that. Kinda leaves open territory.
The scenario I am thinking of is not what you are describing. He decides he wants her, she is not interested, at all. Neither are wedded. When he tries to get a little too intimate for her tastes, (she is way too young, anyway) she introduces him to her kneecap. In response, he slaps her. It erupts into a struggle from there. Is this beyond the bounds of credibility? |
Sounds like quite the cad, does she have an older brother? |
As a matter of fact, she has two older brothers, albeit, adopted. And they will be out for blood. Again with the canon question. Revenge?????? Can we say Feanor???? Love the boiling blood of a race that doles it out.
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The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
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Thuriniel
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
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Location: Watching the purple sky fly over me ...
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| inglor wrote: | PS:
He also said that elves thought that marriage was the natural way of things and yet there are quite a few prominent Elf Lords who remained unmarried or at least no mention of a wife. Gil-Galad, Fingon(if you go by him not being GilGalad's father) Beleg, Mablung, Cirdan, Ecthelion, Glorfindel...
Like Andreth said, PLENTY of loopholes
Inglor |
As I recall, there was some mention in LACE that those elves who remained unwed had "strange fates."
I'm sure I've heard this quote used occasionally to support slash fanfic as somewhat within canon.
No further comments ...
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Thuriniel wrote: | | inglor wrote: | PS:
He also said that elves thought that marriage was the natural way of things and yet there are quite a few prominent Elf Lords who remained unmarried or at least no mention of a wife. Gil-Galad, Fingon(if you go by him not being GilGalad's father) Beleg, Mablung, Cirdan, Ecthelion, Glorfindel...
Like Andreth said, PLENTY of loopholes
Inglor |
As I recall, there was some mention in LACE that those elves who remained unwed had "strange fates."
I'm sure I've heard this quote used occasionally to support slash
fanfic as somewhat within canon.
No further comments ... |
I cannot even conceive of how that could support slash. The things people will use to justify their choices. Ah, well, to each his own (kind). Well, maybe not.
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
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Andreth
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you guys, but I'm not amazing. Just an obsessive compulsive who can't stand not answering a question. I need to start attending my Know-It-Alls Anonymous meetings again. 
Rous, what you're describing sounds fine. And if people don't like it, just tell them to bite you and to read the Silmarillion, in whichever order suits them best.  Kidding. If you don't want to waste time explaining yourself to people, then just add an author's note at the end of the chapter with your reasoning and why you chose to go that way. That's what I always do. Although I still manage to end up with people who want to argue with me. 
On a side note, I wonder how quickly an Elf would recover from being racked? Quicker than a Mortal? Slower than a Dwarf?  |
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sindohte
Joined: 13 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Andreth wrote: | | On a side note, I wonder how quickly an Elf would recover from being racked? Quicker than a Mortal? Slower than a Dwarf? |
Only you would think to ask a question like that  I would say they would not feel a thing because according to Tolkien's Very Secret Letters, male Elves do not have manly parts. When they reproduce they just start glowing and wave their hands in front of their mate and impregnate her through the miracle of Elven magic
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Rous
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sindohte wrote: | | Andreth wrote: | | On a side note, I wonder how quickly an Elf would recover from being racked? Quicker than a Mortal? Slower than a Dwarf? |
Only you would think to ask a question like that I would say they would not feel a thing because according to Tolkien's Very Secret Letters, male Elves do not have manly parts. When they reproduce they just start glowing and wave their hands in front of their mate and impregnate her through the miracle of Elven magic |
Well, now, that is going to change the whole direction of my plot. Hmmmm, no sex. Waving hands. Glowing. Nope, not gonna work. Unless he can have sex while waving his hands and glowing.
And to Andreth: If they could feel an arrow piercing them, I am sure they would be aware of a knee to the nether regions. As for recovery, how do you know how slowly a dwarf would recover?
Maybe I would not like to know. 
_________________
The only opinions that count, are those of the ones in control.
You make hay while the sun shines; beans you can combine after dark.
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