Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"

Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:52 pm

Thank you for your kind words, Angmar and Elfhild!

Angmar said

> It is fans like you that make us want to continue. In the past, some people have disliked >our stories and portrayals of the Nazgûl, but good words are like a soothing balm to >wounded pelts.

Strange, I can't imagine ANYONE disliking your nazgul. They are the most REAL nazgul you can find in all the fandom.

Please write more about them!

About Second Darkness: You know there is a gap at the beginning of the story (about Madurz and Gandalf and her meeting with Khamul). Are you planning to fill it?

Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:20 am

Aganuzir,

I have gotten into endless online discussions of what the Nazgûl are - invisible, perfectly preserved men (which is what I go by); walking perpetually rotting corpses; dust or vapors trapped in magical clothing; or mindless zombie-like robots. At least one person thought that the possibility of Nazgûl having any affectionate feelings towards women was "disturbing," and that person thought even less of Nazgûl having sex. This was very discouraging.

I have thought long and hard about Gandalf in SD. Gandalf is what would be considered a powerful "machine" and must be used sparingly and not just come in one time as a plot device at the "right moment." When SD began, Gandalf was portrayed by a person (no longer with the project) who basically had him strip Mâdûrz of her love for Aldarion but not her memories. That is a cruel thing to have done to her and does not seem to fit with Gandalf's character. Filling in the details with Gandalf's meeting Mâdûrz is still under deliberation for these reasons. In The Circles, the story of how Khamûl and Mâdûrz first encountered each other might be somewhat different, but everything else will be as it is in SD.

Thank you so much for taking an interest in SD and The Circles. Please feel free to ask any questions of either Elfhild or me.

By the way, I believe I have translated your name from Adûnaic and understand its meaning. Smile smiley face

Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:33 pm

Thank you for updating. I appreciate very much the atmosphere and how well you follow the map. The description of Firien wood is enchanting. The orcs are very real.

Thank you for replying to my posts!

Angmar said
>I have gotten into endless online discussions of what the Nazgûl are -
>invisible, perfectly preserved men (which is what I go by);
>walking perpetually rotting corpses; dust or vapors trapped in
>magical clothing; or mindless zombie-like robots.

I think, Tolkien writings support your opinion. The other POV's are inspired by the PJ's movie.

The nazgul never aged or died, just became invisible. "Haggard king", white face, keen and merciless eyes,- that's how the Witch-King is described. Actually, being a "great lord of Númenórean race" he must have been Elven-fair when mortal.

About nazgul having material bodies.
It seems to me that Tolkien first conceived the nazgul to be shape-shifters. In the first drafts of the Gaffer's encounter with a nazgul the latter looked like a hobbit! Then Tolkien has written several versions of the Counsil of Erlond where all these observations about "loosing shape" and "giving shape to their nothingness" belong, and then proceeded further. In the first draft of Eowyn-WK fight, she cut off the Fell-Beast's head and that alone has caused the disappearance of the Witch-King! In the next draft, the WK remained very much alive after the death of his beast, so Tolkien must have changed his conception of nazgul's material body at this point. I believe Tolkien simply failed to correct the previous chapters.

About Gandalf in SD. I think that Gandalf the Gray was a well meaning wizard, but not exactly a god-like creature as Gandalf the White. He made lots of mistakes. Perhaps, out of kindness, he wanted to cure Madurz both of her love and her memories, but failed in the latter?

>By the way, I believe I have translated your name from Adûnaic and
>understand its meaning.

I would think so, considering that my name was inspired more by your writings than by the Notion Club Papers… Smile smiley face

I know "Agan" is death, but I am still not sure what "uzîr" means. Can you help me?

Best wishes,
Aganuzîr

Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:40 pm

Aganuzîr,

Elfhild and I enjoy responding to your posts. Anytime you have questions about either SD or The Circles, just ask.

We ignore Jackson's films. All considerations are derived from the source - Tolkien's works - not PJ's films.

>Actually, being a "great lord of Númenórean race" he must
>have been Elven-fair when mortal.

Yes, the Witch-king must have been handsome because of his Númenórean ancestry. I have seen sketches in which he is depicted as beardless with striking Elvish features.

Is the Angmar in The Circles bearded or beardless? He had one in SD and he is in no mood to shave at this late date. Smile smiley face

The ancestry of Erendis, the wife of Aldarion (the canon one), is mixed with Númenórean blood and that of "Lesser Men." So is the Angmar of SD and The Circles, and this mixed ancestry accounts for the fact he has a beard. (Research for these stories was done in both the archives of LOTR and UT. However, when there is reference to the kings of Númenor, UT is preferred because of some of the difficult, confusing discrepancies between the archives of LOTR and UT.)

>It seems to me that Tolkien first conceived the nazgul
>to be shape-shifters. In the first drafts of the Gaffer's
>encounter with a nazgul the latter looked like a hobbit!

Yes, they certainly appeared to be shapeshifters in Tolkien's early writings. When reading HOME, one can see Tolkien's continually evolving ideas about them. The whole topic of "The Many Deaths of Éowyn and Angmar" sheds light on how Tolkien logically thought these characters out. You can almost see his mind at work in his notes. Here is an interesting quote on the topic of shapeshifting:

"The Gap of Gorgoroth not far from Fire Mountain. There are Orc guard-towers on either side of Gorgoroth. They see a host of evil led by Black Riders. Gollum betrays Frodo. He is beaten off, but escapes shrieking to the Black Riders. The Black Riders now have taken form of demonic eagles and fly before host, or [?take eagle-like] vulture birds as steeds." - "The Story Foreseen from Moria," The Treason of Isengard, p. 208

Obviously, he finally settled for the latter.

>About Gandalf in SD. I think that Gandalf the Gray was a
>well meaning wizard, but not exactly a god-like creature
>as Gandalf the White. He made lots of mistakes. Perhaps,
>out of kindness, he wanted to cure Madurz both of her love
>and her memories, but failed in the latter?

This was the original concept - Gandalf's well-meaning act of kindness that went slightly amiss. This matter is still under lively discussion. Somehow I would like to tie The Circles to SD. I think I am now on "Version D" of the topic. Smile smiley face

After over a year, I thought that all possibilities had been examined, but yet more have been brought up.

>I would think so, considering that my name was inspired
>more by your writings than by the Notion Club Papers…
>I know "Agan" is death, but I am still not sure what "uzîr"
>means. Can you help me?

Thank you. I feel greatly flattered. "Agan" is "death." "Zir" (with no accent on the "i") means "love" or "desire," and the suffix "-zîr" means "lover." (Example - Nimruzîr, "Elf lover," the name for Elendil.) The "u" might refer to case, but I am uncertain since Adûnaic is far from complete and quite difficult. In any event, I think yours is quite a lyrical name. Again, I am quite flattered, and thank you for your kind remarks.

Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:20 pm

A great new chapter, Angmar and Elfhild!

I knew you were expert in dialogue, but now I see that you write place descriptions and battle scenes with the same talent.

Thank you a lot for your kind words and for explaining the meaning of my name. I figured that "uzîr" in Nimruzîr and Aphanuzîr was the same as "dil" in Elendil and Amandil, but now I am quite sure.

Now to the beard question. It is a difficult one, as Tolkien himself appeared not too interested in it. Confused smiley face

Let's take LOTR. I have searched through my E-text for "beard" just for the fun of it.
We know that Gandalf, Bombadil, dwarves, Theoden, Saruman and Treebeard had beards. We are not told whether Aragorn (or Boromir) had one. On the other hand, the statue of a king of old (Isildur?) at the Cross-roads had a beard: "The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold".
Silmarillion: Tulkas, dwarves, Hurin (what a company! Shocked smiley face

) had beards.
UT: Dwarves and Drughu
And, of course, everyone knows that Cirdan had a beard!

From UT I have got a note by Christopher Tolkien: "In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends".
So I believe till very late Tolkien had not considered beardlessness as an elven character in men.

As for me, I somehow imagined Numenorean kings to be beardless, like elves. At least, while Elves were still popular, the fashion probably dictated for the numenoreans to be clean-shaven.

Angmar wrote:
>Is the Angmar in The Circles bearded or beardless? He had one
>in SD and he is in no mood to shave at this late date.

Funny, I am practically sure that Angmar's beard was NOT mentioned in SD even once! Was it? I only remember his long dark hair.

My advice for the Circles: don't mention the beard at all, follow Tolkien's example. Let people draw their own mental image.

Best wishes and many thanks,

Aganuzîr

Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:28 pm

Aganuzîr,

Elfhild and I thank you most kindly for your remarks, and your excellent suggestions. A wargamer for many years, I have some experience in describing battles. Perhaps now all those game losses had a purpose after all. Smile smiley face

We are glad to be of help to you in explaining the meaning of your name. I have a fondness for Adûnaic and find it a pity there are so few words in the vocabulary. Black Speech, however, has fared better than Adûnaic in that regard. Several years ago an effort was made for the benefit of reenactors and those interested to fill in some of the gaps with words taken from Elvish and other languages which followed linguistic rules. Wish that someone would do the same for Adûnaic.

Your research on the word "beard" was indeed fascinating. I have used logic in trying to fathom genetically beardless vs. beards among the Númenóreans. The royal line, the line beginning with Elros, would be beardless, I would say. The kings, however, would have to choose from wives of other families, and the three houses of the Edain are combined in the background of the Númenóreans. There, I believe, could come the genetic traits for beards. The king at the Crossroads (I agree with you that it probably was Isildur) is bearded.

Angmar of SD and the Circles has long, dark hair but tinged with gray. I have tended to think of him as bearded, though, probably because I am bearded and I am prejudiced. Your idea of being vague there in the story is a good one, but there is a scene already written somewhere way down the line in chapter twenty something where Angmar does have a beard, neat and trim. I must think upon your ideas.

Regarding a shaving custom among bearded Númenóreans, here is an interesting comment from Tolkien: "The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar and archaic and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' - the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And their great interest in ancestry and in tombs." - Letter #211, Tolkien Letters, p. 281.

There is an interesting comment about the crown of Gondor in this same letter along with a sketch by Tolkien that reflects Tolkien's view of the Númenóreans as like the ancient Egyptians. "I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle. The N. Kingdom had only a diadem (III 323). Cf. the difference between the N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt." Here, Tolkien is using the example of the Egyptian combined crown of the kingdoms of Upper and Lower Egypt.

Since the ancient Egyptians, both men and women, shaved both their heads and bodies, and Tolkien was using these people as somewhat of a model, I think your idea of the practice of shaving the face when the Elves were in favor and possibly not shaving when they were out of favor is a very good theory. This makes logical sense and gives flavor to a vague time in which Tolkien only hinted.

Now that still leaves the question of Angmar, bearded or unbearded. Hmm... *strokes beard and ponders.*

Best wishes to you, Aganuzîr, and I hope we will provide you and others with continuing adventure and exploring the vague elements of Tolkien.

Angmar and Elfhild

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:21 pm

The Age of Sauron has begun, Darkness unescapable is on us!

Congratulations to the authors of the Second Darkness for its first birthday on the web!
Many happy returns of the day!

Your faithful reader toasts you with a goblet of Dushûrz-Gabhîk, the glowing green wine.

To you, Angmar and Elfhild!

Aganuzîr

Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:56 pm

Aganuzir said
> The Age of Sauron has begun, Darkness unescapable is on us!
>Congratulations to the authors of the Second Darkness for its
>first birthday on the web!
>Many happy returns of the day!
>Your faithful reader toasts you with a goblet of Dushûrz-Gabhîk,
>the glowing green wine.
>To you, Angmar and Elfhild!

We join with you, O Aganuzîr, most loyal of friends and allies, in raising our goblets high, first in allegiance, our fealty sworn to the Darkness Unescapable.

Gaakh Mordor agh Burzûm nau narkû!
(May Mordor and Darkness never end)

Truly 'tis an occasion of great rejoicing, this commemoration of the first year of Second Darkness on the web. Which such staunch friends such as you, Aganuzîr, there will be no end.

Elfhild offers the cup of Dushûrz-Gabhîk to her lord, saying, "Receive now this cup and drink in happy hour. Health be with thee at thy coming and going, and may the Darkness that rules All never end," and after her dark master has drunk of the cup, she then offers it to Aganuzîr.

Angmar and Elfhild

Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:39 pm

Aganuzîr accepts the cup reverently on bended knee and drinks deeply from it.

“Aarsh Tor Satum-ob, O Ash Bubhosh, Shakh Dushgoi-ob!”

Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:21 pm

Aganuzir said
> Aganuzîr accepts the cup reverently on bended knee and drinks deeply from it.
>
> “Aarsh Tor Satum-ob, O Ash Bubhosh, Shakh Dushgoi-ob!”

Narnûlublat kulug-ûr krampûrz, narish Mordor-ob.

Thank you for being loyal, friend of Mordor.

It will not be forgotten.

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Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"