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Aganuzir
Joined: 31 May 2005
Reviews: 94
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Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:10 pm
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I can say that the new chapter was worth waiting for it. The nazgul in the Ninth chapter!  At last we behold the Morgul Lord in all his glory!
I loved how you made the tension mount: The army marches by, the advance-guard, the standard bearers with Eye standards and Morgul sigil – you know the Morgul Lord is coming! But there are only orcs… orcs…orcs.. Where, where is he? Then it has become colder, the leaves rustled without a wind, the sense of fear ..and here He is at last, clad in black and silver with a crescent moon on his shoulder and a crown on his head. Awesome!
I can’t say, however, that I liked the accompanying picture of the Black Rider you put on your web page. This nazgul is not cutting an impressive enough figure, I think . He is rather small and sits crouched in the saddle. Not like you depict the Morgul Lord.
Who was his lieutenant clad in a scarlet mantle and a head-dress? Khamul, most likely?
I should say that Elfhild’s behavior was a bit too forward for a shy maiden. Gawking at the King like this… What possessed her?
Orcs are most real. You surpassed yourselves in this chapter. Their bawdy talk, their songs are wonderful. Straightforward, no nonsense, no difficult western allegories, just to the core of the matter. Actually, the songs were even too good for orcs. Perhaps, Elfhild had a chance to hear the greatest orc poet of the age?
The Notes:
Interesting are your musings on the Sigil of Morgul. Just what is “the ghastly face of death”?
I know there is no answer in Tolkien’s works, but I have always pictured it as a scull superposed on a moon. But, perhaps, you are right and it is just a sickle moon…
About the tower of Minas Morgul. Yes, Minas Morgul was a twin of Minas-Tirith so, originally, at the end of the Second age, they must have been almost identical. But the tower of Echtelion dates from TA 2698, when Minas Morgul was already occupied by the nazgul for 600 years. I suppose that the tower of Minas Morgul was identical to the tower that existed in Minas Tirith before Ecthelion. The nazgul must have renovated their tower, at least adding the upper rotating level. I suppose, though I have nothing to prove it, that originally the tower had 7 levels, but later two more were added to get 9 levels. And they added beautiful glow to the walls and pale flowers to make it a real jewel.
And, of course, I am most grateful for all the updates of the Second Darkness!
Again several new wonderful characters: Candon, Debanni, her mother, her brother,. Isn’t it funny: every time you introduce a new character, I think: “Oh no! Not another character. At this rate I shall never be able to learn what happened to the old ones...” But then the new characters grip my attention as much as the old ones did, and I start to care for them as well. Still, I would be happy to learn how Eowyn fares without Angmar. And what has happened to the three girls left in Morgul?
Actually you surprised me with your R-rated chapter. I liked it a lot, but isn’t it the first one in all the project? I had the impression that you desperately tried to stick to PG-13, even when at some turns of the story it was next to impossible. (As with Angmar and Eowyn as well as Rian and Vartang in the dungeon for instance). In general there was a lot of kissing but no mention of sex. I think that your choice to include some chapters for mature readers improves the story a lot. Perhaps, once you have started along this dark path, you could edit some of the earlier chapters where more explicit content is appropriate. Not necessarily HOW they do it, but at least acknowledge that they DO it.
Best wishes and many thanks for this week’s updates,
Yours,
Aganuzîr |
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AngmarAndElfhild
Joined: 18 May 2005
Reviews: 80
Location: All of Arda
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Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:58 pm
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Aganuzîr,
Considering the fact that I have had the privilege of portraying the Lord of the Nine for over the year in a long running roleplay, I feel most comfortable now writing about him. Yes, you have beheld him coming in his own dark glory. The one beside him appears to be Khamûl, but he is not. This one is the Morgul Lord's lieutenant. Tolkien never said exactly who was the Lieutenant of Morgul, whether a Nazgûl, an orc or a man. The film, as we know, portrayed him as an orc. I felt that was an unlikely candidate since men were usually in command of orcs and it is hard to believe an orc could have arisen to such a lofty position. Whatever the case, for the sake of this story, Gothmog is a Nazgûl, Number Three in rank, or in Black Speech "Shakh Gakh."
Yes, you caught the first appearance Nazgûl, appropriately enough, in the ninth chapter. I am glad that you felt that the wait was well worth it.
What possessed Elfhild, among all the others, to raise up her head and look at him? That now will remain a mystery but I think the word "possessed" or one close akin might most apply here. The Morgul Lord has other things on his mind besides impudent maidens along the route. He has a whole battle ahead of him, one which he is destined to lose, and after that... it is best not said.
The orcs - much maligned creatures, underestimated and under appreciated except by a few. If you listen to the orcs, they will tell you the truth of the matter, and the words are not sweetened by the lore of the West. Humans, for the most part, will know little of their lore unless they chance upon it through some unexpected circumstances. Indeed Elfhild met one of the great balladeers of that age, but the poor maid probably did not have knowledge enough at that time to appreciate it. The orcs will be back, though, spreading their own kind of wisdom and truth.
"The ghastly face of death" - the sigil of Morgul can be interpreted several ways. I have seen a drawing of a full moon with a skull superimposed on it, and the symbol rests upon a black field. While that quite possibly is an accurate depiction, it just did not seem comfortable because of its pirate connotations in later legend. I do not know if Tolkien thought the same or not. I do know in this drawing when he depicted Orthnac, he depicted a star above it and a hand below, while above Minas Morgul, there hung a crescent moon and below the cresent moon within a red ring. I have found that Tolkien often did things that were more subtle, not overt signs of "evil." The crescent moon has a significance in arcane lore, and Angmar is, after all, the Witch-king. Therefore, for the sake of this story, I am using the crescent moon as his banner. I will use the other emblems Tolkien created, the cresent moon within the red ring and the Nazgul flight corps emblem, at later times.
The tower of Minas Morgul in Second Darkness always had nine levels, though the layout of the city and fortress will change in the Circles. I don't want to give away too much of this at this time but I have been working for some time on sketches and have tried to incorporate as much as is known and all good conjectures into my concepts. Just wish I could draw better.
There is a whole series that Eowyn and I have been working on since October set after Eowyn is wounded at Helm's Deep. It is just not ready to go on the site yet. Eowyn, does, however make a comeback in the newest SD chapters. She is with her brother sitting in judgment in the temporary hall at Dunharrow, and finally, she does address, at least in thought, what happened to her in the Dark Tower.
The three girls left in Morgul? Everyone will find out soon enough there.
Glad you are growing to like the new characters, Adibe, Debanni, Atar and Candon. There is more about them now on the site with more to come soon.
I was quite hesitant about the acceptance of the solitary R rated scene in SD. You are correct. I have desperately tried to avoid R rated scenes because of the preferences of one of the writers. I have felt all along that many of the stories suffered for it and were left hanging open-ended in the air. Yes, not necessarily the "HOW" but just an acknowledgement was needed. However, a writer felt uncomfortable with even that and so I steered dialog around the facts.
Ever, Aganuzîr, are we grateful for your comments. They are very helpful and most appreciated. |
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Aganuzir
Joined: 31 May 2005
Reviews: 94
Location:
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Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:55 am
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Chapter 10.
What a wonderful chapter! Congratulations, Elfhild!
It was wise to let a woman render Elfhild’s feelings. Really, girls need so little to let their mind race and imagination work. The way their mind works leaves men agape very often. Men wander : “what have I ever done or said to make her fall in love with me?” And no rational answer is forthcoming.
Mysterious Dark King of great power … Sure! Given more time to ponder on “I will remember”, Elfhild will fall in love without more encouragement needed. I think she was not bespelled, it was just a natural process.
I only hope you will not let Angmar become too romantic himself. That would be out of character. What is natural for a sixteen-your old maid is not so for a 4500 year-old wraith. I think he will not forget her, but surely a young peasant like Elfhild could hardly be more than a favorite pet to him in the future?
Leofgifu’s reaction is also priceless. The public opinion is so important for all of them, they fear what the neighbors from their little village will say, even the captivity and all the pain and loss don’t change that.
Strange, though, that orcs made no comments. Or will they later? It might be funny to tell her who exactly was she gawking at. I think, the incident might be a protection to Elfhild. The orcs will be afraid to harm her, as there is a slight possibility that the ‘Igh One will ask for her later.
It was a balm to my soul to read about Mordor horses being healthy and well cared for. I think the interpretation of nazgul horses as poor abused (and spooked) beasts was one of the greatest mistakes of PJ’s movie. After all, according to the Tale of Years the nazgul horses made the trip from the Fords of Isen to Sarn Ford as swiftly as Shadowfax! The same applies to race Bree-Weathertop in LOTR. The Nazgul horses must have been Mearas, and not the abused sorry beasts.
Thank you for your detailed pictures of the medieval tack. It is well to make readers to learn new things.
I definitely like “Circles” even more than “Second Darkness”! You write so beautifully, Angmar and Elfhild!
And thank you for all the updates of the SD.
What a bloodbath you made! Rian, Finduilas etc. in one go and in such a dirty way!
And it seems that the Easterlings have revolted. Seems plausible, as now they have no enemies like Gondor, so they may think of their own freedom. Looks like the Dark Lord is going to have problems in the East. But perhaps Vartang’s attack was a part of Sauron’s design?
One thing, though. What about the mithril necklaces the Morgul-Lord has given to Lilandra, Finduilas and Rian? They served for naught, it seems. Were they of no power? Or have you forgotten about them?
Now “Halfling Subtle Torture Project” has come to an end. Hmm, I am afraid I share the feelings of Guntha (I liked the man!) that it was too subtle for mortal understanding. All that effort and money to make suffer a pathetic halfling! After all, he was miserable in the Shire even when the quest succeeded, as it is in the book.
Well, Frodo was never one of my favorites. Speaking of hobbits, I liked Ashgaz much more. That was a success! Sam I found irritable, don’t know why.
Now I am looking forward to Eowyn’s story. Must be interesting. She must have rather “controversial” feelings towards Angmar. Will she be happy with Faramir? Hmm, wasn’t there a prophecy: “No living man will please thee”? And what about Aragorn? The latter is free now, it seems, as Arwen has sailed West. He must think about needing a heir.
Well, I shall learn soon enough, I hope.
Best wishes, Angmar and Elfhild!
Aganuzîr |
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AngmarAndElfhild
Joined: 18 May 2005
Reviews: 80
Location: All of Arda
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Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:23 pm
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Aganuzir,
Ladies are always first, so here will be Elfhild's reply to you, and then my comments will be forthcoming after hers.
Thank you so much for your comments on Chapter 10!
Elfhild is only sixteen and is still innocent and naive, filled with the exuberance of youth. She thinks, talks and daydreams a lot, but turns shy and bashful when actually talking with a lad. A smile, a word or a short conversation with a boy her age causes her to tremble, and she almost swoons from a kiss upon the hand. She dreamed of marrying Osric, the son of the village blacksmith, and after the wedding and the proceeding celebrations, live a good and relatively uneventful life. There would be children, then grandchildren, and then she would die around the age of eighty, a beloved matriarch revered by her family and friends, and completely unknown to the rest of the world. That was all that she had known and hoped for in life. But then there was a war...
No, Elfhild was not bespelled. Yes, she sensed the presence of the approaching Nazgul - the chill in the air, the shadows deepening - something which would have logically made the unsuspecting, superstitious Rohirrim freeze in terror. Yet this very aura of darkness both frightened and intrigued her. She found it highly sensual and seductive, yet she did not understand why. Perhaps it had something to do with her love of ghost stories and her fascination with death.
About Leofgifu... Yes, even in tragic situations, people will still fret about trivial things. Perhaps it is the mind's way of dealing with the shock - those little worries bring a sense of normalcy in a trying time.
About the orcs... Remember "Falling silent now, Elfhild and Leofgifu saw that indeed a band of orcs had gathered there. The brutes were laughing and talking amongst themselves, pointing at Elfhild and her aunt and then snickering at some crude jest of their fellows." They knew and perhaps they were laughing about that rather than the ongoing argument. Their comments were not recorded.
We shall see how Elfhild fares and if she really is remembered...
Yes, the Nazgul horses seemed to be mearas, just like Shadowfax, or at least crossed with mearas. They were able to travel unbelievable distances in just a short time. You can't travel far on a dead horse, and mearas are hard to come by.
About Second Darkness... Yes, Eowyn was cursed, but how strongly the curse will affect her is yet unknown. During the Battle of Helm's Deep, she was in a state of mental turmoil from anger, grief and guilt and thought of nothing but avenging herself in battle and dying in the process. In the spring of the next year, she seems to have recovered somewhat, though she is still haunted by guilt.
Arwen has not left Middle-earth. She still dwells in Rivendell, but with the unstable situation of the world, an occupied Gondor and the constant threat of war, Aragorn has thought more of defense and survival than of marriage. Aragorn feels she is far safer to remain in Rivendell. The vision that Frodo had of Aragorn looking into the palantir had both truths and deceits. There was a fell winter and Eowyn was wearing a wolf skin, but Arwen did not leave Middle-earth. You would have to ask Angmar what happens next.
Again, thank you for your comments.
Elfhild
***
Elfhild has answered many of the questions. I will now answer those that remain.
>I only hope you will not let Angmar become too romantic himself.
>That would be out of character.
I believe it would be safe to say that Angmar has no romantic interest in the maid. To do otherwise would not be in his character. Perhaps, though, he saw into some of her thoughts and recognized her deep interest in the arcane, and feels, as did Melkor, "There is a use for every thrall." Perhaps she will be a pet. Obviously, he has had others. He will reveal little of his true intents, whatever they may be, until he feels the time is appropriate.
Obviously, Peter Jackson or his film advisors ignored the quote from Gandalf that the horses of the Nine are real horses. Anyone who has ever had horses knows that they must be fed, groomed, watered, doctored and shod. In the conceptual stages of the movie, there was even some conjecture on giving the Nazgul a special "breed" of demon horse that would be handled by computer special effects. Hardly real horses. Strictly from a utilitarian viewpoint, abuse of horses will soon render the rider without one and the idea was for speed rather than stealth in tracking down Frodo and the Ring. Here, Jackson treats the Nazgul like they are brainless idiots who know nothing about horseflesh. The swords and armor of the Nazgul and Mouth of Sauron in the movie were even meant to be rusted from neglect. This is hokey and very unrealistic.
In Second Darkness, some of the Easterling nations are considering rebellion. Having themselves suffered in the defeat at the Second Battle of Helm's Deep, they can see chinks in Sauron's power. They have taken hope that someday, perhaps, they will be free from generation after generation of servitude to Sauron. Perhaps Sauron, even with His Ring regained, is not invincible. Ar-Phazaron, long years ago, had defeated Him, as had the Elves in the war in Eregion.
It is good to know you like The Circles better than Second Darkness. We have long been planning this project and looking forward to it greatly. Second Darkness, for the most part, never developed the kind of depth and maturity that Elfhild, Zaminbalak and I wanted. That should change in The Circles.
The final bloodbath in SD - yes, it was dirty and bloody and quite unexpected. Vartang's attack was not part of Sauron's design, unless he unwittingly fell into the Dark Lord's hands, which is entirely possible. Vartang is truly a "man of darkness."
The question of the mithril necklaces is handled elsewhere. Check your private messages.
Guntha was correct. The revenge against Frodo is beyond comprehension of mortals. Maiar have their own way and are inscrutable to even their own kind sometimes. Sauron used many of His servants and His own riches from the earth to wreak His vengeance. I think the Dark Master considered the ultimate outcome a triumph of its own kind.
Hobbits have never been a favorite topic of mine. Ashgaz is the kind of mistake that will never happen again. Fatty Bolger was very close to this type of fate in one of Tolkien's many rejected versions. He was kidnapped by the Black Riders but rescued by Gandalf. I never knew this fact before until I read about it recently.
Anyone who reads the HOME series will find this happening to them all the time. Here is this obscure happening that Tolkien either rejected or never developed and it is really fascinating. I just came across the reference to Hazad Longbeard in the story "Tal-Elmar" in "The People of Middle-earth." I never knew before that Tolkien wrote about a more primitive people who seemed to have little technology and used clubs instead of swords. The strange thing about this discovery, though, was I was already planning on using that concept in an upcoming story. Perhaps I never should have read it. At least no one can ever ridicule a story set in Middle-earth in which a group of undeveloped swarthy people, dressed in loincloths, capture women from a blonde Wainrider type race and take them as wives, despite the fact they already have husbands and children. Of course this story of Tolkien's takes up the approaching three Numenorean ships sighted just off the coast.
Eowyn... Ah, that is a tale in itself. Yes, she has "controversial" feelings towards Angmar and sometimes her dreams are quite extraordinary, I am told. Whether Faramir could ever please her or not remains to be seen. He will try though, I assure you.
Yes, sooner or later the readers will know the answers to most of the questions, whether in Second Darkness or in Circles. Thank you for reading and being such a great fan.
Angmar |
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Aganuzir
Joined: 31 May 2005
Reviews: 94
Location:
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Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:54 pm
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Thank you for the new chapter (11) and for your teply to my previous comments.
It seems I have got my wish to hear orc comments on Angmar-Elfhild encounter. Now I see, I was wrong to suppose they would jeer openly about it. You are right, of course. Angmar is so ‘Igh Up’ that any comments about him could be done only in frightened whispers. It reminds me of Shagrat & Gorbag talk in LOTR about the war. They were very discreet, though their topic was not so personal as in this case. I liked that you have shown that the orcs fear Angmar much more than a soldier would an army commander. Nazgul are feared and hated, I believe. However, fear or no fear, the desire to gossip prevails. That makes orcs human somehow, not beasts or robots.
Funny ideas on “what Angmar does with his girls”! I have a feeling one of the orcs is right, though…
Best wishes,
Aganuzîr |
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AngmarAndElfhild
Joined: 18 May 2005
Reviews: 80
Location: All of Arda
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:27 pm
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Aganuzir,
There is nothing like the knowledge that punishment will both swift and unpleasant to curtail public voicing of opinions. There was always the impression in the all-too-few orc comments that if you wanted to know what was really going on in Mordor, just overhear an orc conversation. Certainly the orcs feared Angmar; they had good reason to be terrified. As Gorbag said, "Grr! Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." There can be no better inducement for tight lips than that threat.
As you know from reading Second Darkness, things can get very grim and unpleasant for transgressors in the Dark Land. That is why there are warnings on Ansereg that the site has "heavy character torture." You can look for the same in future chapters in the Circles. However, other than gaining healthy respect for the protagonists, no amount of violence is ever done for sheer shock effect on readers. Sometimes those who read have to dig under the surface for other meanings.
"Funny ideas on “what Angmar does with his girls”! I have a feeling one of the orcs is right, though…"
There might be more than a grain of truth in what the orcs said in Black Speech about "what Angmar does with his girls." The dilemma, though, is separating the truth from the rumors.
Thank you, Aganuzir, for reading. Elfhild promises a new chapter soon. No hints. |
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Tourniquette
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Reviews: 22
Location: USA
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:24 pm
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| Again, very Tolkien-est. XD I think the back story takes up a bit too much time here, but it's still a very enjoyable story, and the writing is superb. Please continue! |
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AngmarAndElfhild
Joined: 18 May 2005
Reviews: 80
Location: All of Arda
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Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:08 pm
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Tourniquette said
> Again, very Tolkien-est. XD I think the back story takes up a bit too much time here, but it's still a very enjoyable story, and the writing is superb. Please continue!
Tourniquette,
I am glad you are enjoying the story, but I must warn you that you must be prepared for a long journey. The trip has barely begun. A lot can happen on the trail.
The orgins for The Circles was a roleplay called Second Darkness of which I was the gamemaster. That took over a year to finish before I decided to shorten the tale, and some, even now, were disappointed when it stopped. Just hang on to the pommel. This will be a long ride.
Angmar |
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Tourniquette
Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Reviews: 22
Location: USA
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Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:30 pm
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| Oh, I know. I read some of the excerpts there (very fun), and I'm looking forward to it. I don't want you to stop what you're doing just because one of the chapters felt strange to me! Good stories are usually longer ones. |
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AngmarAndElfhild
Joined: 18 May 2005
Reviews: 80
Location: All of Arda
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Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:41 pm
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Tourniquette said
> Oh, I know. I read some of the excerpts there (very fun), and I'm looking forward to it. I don't want you to stop what you're doing just because one of the chapters felt strange to me! Good stories are usually longer ones.
Tourniquette,
By necessity, Chapter 12 is a slow one because time was needed to introduce new characters and show further character development of established ones. There is always method to what we do, although it might take a very long time to bring an idea to fruition.
In Second Darkness, it took about two years in Middle-earth to get Frodo back to the Shire (3019-3020) and in real time, it took from March 2004 to July 2005. Do not think, though, that the necessary slowness to allow for RPG is a factor in The Circles. There is no roleplay whatsoever involved with The Circles; it is all writing.
I think Elfhild and I will look back to this chapter as "the calm before the storm." |
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