Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:42 pm

Tourniquette said
> Oh, I know. I read some of the excerpts there (very fun), and I'm looking forward to it. I don't want you to stop what you're doing just because one of the chapters felt strange to me! Good stories are usually longer ones.

Tourniquette,

We are glad you are enjoying Second Darkness and The Circles. Circles will be a very long story, perhaps even a book.

By necessity, Chapter 12 is a slow one because time was needed to introduce new characters and show further character development of established ones. There is always method to what we do, although it might take a very long time to bring an idea to fruition.

In Second Darkness, it took from March 2004 to July 2005 to get Frodo back to the Shire. Do not think, though, that the necessary slowness to allow for RPG is a factor in The Circles. There is no roleplay whatsoever involved with The Circles; it is all writing.

I think Elfhild and I will look back to this chapter as "the calm before the storm."

It might get a little more exciting in Chapter 13, which has just been loaded. Smile smiley face

Chapter 14 might be a little livelier even. Twisted Evil smiley face

Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:38 pm

Ch. 12.
I mostly agree with Tourniquette, this chapter was a bit too retrospective and uneventful. But I appreciated further insight into Rohirric language and customs. All in all, it felt like a last glance back, before one accepts the new life and stops pondering the past.

Ch. 13.

A very interesting chapter.
I like how you managed to render the feeling of desolation in Anorien. The dismal landscape, burned homesteads. And demons flying overhead… Scary. Even the few wild strawberries, that could still be found, just stress the abnormality of the present.

And, of course, I liked Captain Kourosh, the first kind-hearted Easterling philosopher in all the fandom! Smile smiley face

(or was he a Southron?). I completely agree with his words: "Are we not all savages, covered only by a slight cloak of civilization? We look across a battle line and call the other 'savage' whilst at the same time the enemy looks across at us and says, 'Barbarians!' Under the skin we are all the same. The only thing that separates us is political philosophy." Very, very true. Indeed there are no bad nations; every one displays a variety of types and personalities.

Easterling culture and learning might be superior to that of Rohan, if not Gondor. That reminds me of the Crusades, when the warriors of the West, who though themselves to be the only civilized people on Earth, first met with superior Arabic culture and philosophy…

Interesting to me was the interaction between the Easterlings and the orcs. Normally in an army of men, a captain from a totally different division has very little authority over men of another division. (Or so I think, I can't really be sure). Here, it looks like the visit of the Easterlings was intimidating for the orcs. Were they that far down the social ladder? After all, in LOTR, Shagrat was the Captain of a large fortress…

And, lastly, the Directives… a real gem. Smile smiley face

Who was the author: Sauron or the Morgul Lord? A very wise order, no doubt. Almost too perfect for any army. But was it sustainable? I believe that after a battle and a sack of a city, no such orders could be obeyed, at least by men of the states vassal to Mordor. Orcs, perhaps, could be intimidated, although I doubt even that. Were the Directives followed during the sack of Minas Tirith? Of course, when a battle is over, the men become more manageable. We shall see what happens, I guess.

Best wishes,
Aganuzîr

Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:36 pm

Aganuzîr,

This is the correct interpretation on Chapter 12, a look backward into what was and will never be again for the two maidens. There will be more uneventful chapters in the future. Considering the length of this project, chapters such as this are necessary to get in fine details. Rohan now is nothing but a memory.

Remembrances of normalcy set against the background of the bizarre are chilling. The "demons," of course, are the Nazgûl but the captives have no idea what they are. I always like to think of them as the "Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps" as Tolkien called them. He even drew an emblem for them. I have always wondered if the Nazgûl here are symbolic of the airplanes of World War I. While, of course, artillery fire does not exist in this period, the Nazgûl can fire some wicked arrows.

Captain Kourosh was a Variag from Khand, as were Sergeant Daungha and Tooraj. Yes, the captain is a philosopher. In the Circles there are no "bad nations." All are simply humans or creatures that are molded by the societal influences that shape their lives. There will be both good and bad Easterlings and Southrons. There are also cultural differences with some cultures being viewed as "advanced" and others as being "primitive."

While Captain Kourosh is a philosopher and truly a civilized man, he is caught in a culture that still clings to more primitive ways. He knows that he cannot change that, but he hopes that social progress may yet be achieved. Sergeant Daungha is civilized, too, but he is a younger man, impetuous, headstrong, reckless, and sometimes very foolish. While both are totally relentless against an enemy, they are kind to their families and friends.

Yes, the perception of the West is very much akin to that of the Crusaders. Obviously the enemy is the "heathen" that must be conquered. The Arab culture was far superior to European culture at the time of the Crusades and the Arab culture had made far greater advances in medicine, mathematics, architecture and other areas.

>Interesting to me was the interaction between the Easterlings and
>the orcs. Normally in an army of men, a captain from a totally
>different division has very little authority over men of another
>division. (Or so I think, I can't really be sure). Here, it looks like the
>visit of the Easterlings was intimidating for the orcs. Were they that
>far down the social ladder? After all, in LOTR, Shagrat was the
>Captain of a large fortress…

I think there would be racial prejudices even in the East. While Captain Kourosh has an aversion to orcs brought on by experiences in childhood, he respects their loyalty and fighting skills. The men of the West under Aragorn would slay every last orc, believing them unfit to live. I see shades of ethnic cleansing here.

Sauron came up with the "Directives" after the fall of Minas Tirith. None other would come up with such rigid control. Sauron, wanting control and order, knows that only a strong force of will can enforce such order. As we see in Chapter 14, they were not enforceable and as the Mordorian armies move into Rohan, these directives will be impossible to sustain. Punishment, however, in such a situation would be unlikely to be forthcoming because it would be virtually impossible. After all, the primary goal is to defeat the combined forces of Gondor, Rohan and their Northern allies.

Chapter 15 - No hints there, but we might be returning to a more or less uneventful but necessary chapter.

Angmar and Elfhild

Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:32 am

I have disregarded your warning and read it and was NOT disturbed (as yet??) Very Happy smiley face

And you write so very well, professional. Smile smiley face

Interesting story. Sweet maidens, bad Easterlings, awful orcs. Sounds cool. At least the subject is rare.

What will it be, nazgul romance? Shocked smiley face

Weird somehow. They are supposed to be undead, aren't they?

And...khmmm, ARE the nazguls capable of sex? I mean a mortal girl will surely die of Black Breath! Or it does not bother the wraiths much? Perhaps, not at all? But can they endure long enough for some sport?
I am afraid my comments are too silly
Surprised smiley face

ops:

Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:33 pm

Xyzzy,

Thank you for your kind words. We are glad that you were not disturbed. We have been told by some people that our work is too gothic for them, and the warning was issued just to let people know that there will be dark elements.

Not all Easterlings and Southrons and/or other vassal peoples will be evil. They will be viewed as products of their cultures and act accordingly.

Nazgul romance? Hmmm.... This story is not to be considered a romance; it is more of a drama. You will have to wait to see about romance aspects.

>And...khmmm, ARE the nazguls capable of sex? I mean a mortal girl
>will surely die of Black Breath! Or it does not bother the wraiths
>much? Perhaps, not at all? But can they endure long enough for
>some sport?
>I am afraid my comments are too silly

Your comments are not silly in any way. The questions you have asked have been asked many times before. The subject can become a very complicated one with people on one side seeing it one way and the people on the other side seeing it an entirely different way. We go on the premise that while the Nazgul are neither living nor dead, they are perfectly preserved, though by unnatural means, magic, in other words. Basically they are invisible men with great power, sorcerers.

Black Breath seems to be a phenomenon that can be controlled by the Nazgul as they wish. It would be impossible to deal with living troops if they succumb to overpowering horror in your presence. For example, a Nazgul speaking to a Southron commander: "General, you are to take the third brigade and harass the enemy's right flank." Instead of obeying the Nazgul's orders, however, the general falls to the ground in a shuddering heap. That would be a very stupid blunder upon Sauron's part, as more soldiers would die of Black Shadow in the Mordor armies than the enemy would kill. Troops can be intimidated into battle with fear, but too much fear is bad for morale, and also health.

Being perfectly preserved also could mean being perfectly virile. At least consider them so in this Alternative Universe. Smile smiley face

Here it is stated in Tolkien's Letters that the Nine Rings preserve or slow decay, sort of like how Nenya preserved Lothlorien. After all, the Three Rings of Elves, Nine Rings of Men and the Seven Rings of Dwarves were first created by the Elves, but all save the Three Elven Rings were sullied by Sauron. In Tolkien's world, the desire to preserve things in a constant state is considered wrong, for change is a necessary part of life. The Elves erred in trying to preserve that which they could not, and Sauron further corrupted this fault.

"With the aid of Sauron's lore they [the Elves] made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods). The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the preservation or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corrupted into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." - Letter #131, Tolkien Letters, p. 152

There are no "silly" or "stupid" questions.

Angmar

Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:15 pm

Thank you for updating so soon, Angmar and Elfhild!

Angmar wrote
>The "demons," of course, are the Nazgûl but the captives have no idea what
> they are. I always like to think of them as the "Mordor Special Mission
>Flying Corps" as Tolkien called them. He even drew an emblem for them.

How very interesting, I have not heard of it. Where was it, in the "Letters"?
And what was the emblem like?

>Captain Kourosh was a Variag from Khand

That makes him a Southron or an Easterling?
Was Khamul from Khand as well? (the names seem similar)

>Sauron came up with the "Directives" after the fall of Minas Tirith.
>None other would come up with such rigid control.

Too rigid for mortals, IMO. Perhaps a maia Sauron could not understand human nature very well? Afrer all, when he was abroad in the wide world in the First and the Second age, he mostly dealt with evles and orcs…I felt the Directives were not enforceable, and really Ch. 14 proves that all too well. I hope poor Sergeant Daungha will not be punished too cruelly… I can't say he was a nice guy, but he hardly deserves to be castrated. After all, he did no great harm to the girls. Actually, I am surprised that his Captain has chosen to arrest and denounce Daungha, instead of scolding him in private and covering up for him.

Awesome kisses, by the way! Smile smiley face

I like your writing! Poor Elffled, it must be only the first of many similar experiences.

Best wishes,
Aganuzir

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:47 pm

Aganuzîr,

Thank you for reading. The Mordor Special Mission Flying Corps was done in a doodle by Tolkien and is included in "J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator." A picture of this emblem can be found at http://www.forodrim.org/gobennas/heraldry/heraldry.htm

Note the Minas Morgul emblem. This is not the one I use but rather use the moon as depicted on the dust jacket of the 1954 The Two Towers. The 1954 illustration of the cresent moon was drawn by Tolkien; the skull on the moon was not drawn by him.

All of the peoples from Rhûn and Khand can be called Easterlings, but Haradrim are always Southrons. Tolkien refers to the people of Khand as "Variags." The Wainriders and Balcoth came from Rhûn. In this AU, it is to be considered that Khamûl came from the section of Khand that is closest to Rhûn, or northern Khand. Taking into consideration the curvature of the earth (the Middle-earth maps were designed for a flat earth, even though the world became round after Númenor sank) and comparing the whole of Middle-earth to a modern-day map, Khamûl came from what is modern-day Turkey, more or less. (There will be a lengthy discussion of the real world and Middle-earth in Chapter 15).

>Too rigid for mortals, IMO. Perhaps a maia Sauron could not
>understand human nature very well? Afrer all, when he was abroad
>in the wide world in the First and the Second age, he mostly dealt
>with evles and orcs…I felt the Directives were not enforceable, and
>really Ch. 14 proves that all too well. I hope poor Sergeant Daungha
>will not be punished too cruelly… I can't say he was a nice guy, but
>he hardly deserves to be castrated. After all, he did no great harm
>to the girls. Actually, I am surprised that his Captain has chosen to
>arrest and denounce Daungha, instead of scolding him in private and
>covering up for him.

The Directives are not enforcable, but we must wait until the next few chapters to see what happens to the woeful Daungha.

>Awesome kisses, by the way! I like your writing! Poor Elffled, it must
>be only the first of many similar experiences.

I would wager to say that she did, too, but it is doubtful that she will ever admit it.

Thanks to you and all of our readers.

Angmar and Elfhild

Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:49 am

Took a while to find this here. I have the link to the "original site".

Some comments, Bad News First:

The first two chapters are very difficult to get through. They really need to be pared down. The overuse of the word "maiden" quickly becomes silly. You probably won't agree, and that's OK; but in their current state they are somewhat off-putting. Especially since the one chapter ends in Numenor, and then *pow!* we're in Rohan. I understand not wanting to call the one chapter a "prologue", because most people won't read prologues. (They swear they do, but hit counters don't lie.) As it is, there doesn't seem to be any connection between the two.

Now the Good Stuff:

The Nazgul should be perfectly-preserved Men. They are not windblown ghosts! I ran into the same nonsense you've described. The films, IMHO, did nothing to help. Especially with the horses. Doesn't anyone actually *think* about these things? Oh, and as for the armor: I got to see the WK armor up close & personal at FIDM last year. It was rusty, broken, and had holes! WTF? Why wear it? Why bother? It's trash, just like the clothes he wore. It's almost like the costume people thought that somehow the Nazgul hadn't bothered to change their clothes in the last 4000 years or so.

The Directives sound more like something that WK would issue, rather than Sauron. After all, Sauron has his ring back. He's not on the ground, dealing with the idiocy & chaos. He's not trying to get several different cultures & languages working together. That's the Nazguls' job. Sure, he wants to impose his will on everything, but he's not the one imposing that will. That's left to his lieutenants.

Yes, Gothmog has to be Nazgul #3. No Orc would get that kind of rank. (WTF was PJ thinking? Let's face it--if a Nazgul told orcs to hold the line, they'd hold that line. Maybe PJ needed them to run.) Khamul of course was in charge at Dol Guldur, with another one. In "Circles" I would assume that he's still there?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:44 am

Khazar,

We appreciate your comments.

Not quite sure what you mean by "original site." The origin of "The Circles" is a live action roleplay that I ran for 16 months. After 16 months of that, Elfhild and I are still shellshocked and are trying to recover. If we seem a little odd, it is because we are. Smile smiley face

The prologue is titled "Prologue - Yôzâyan" but Open Scrolls calls it "Chapter 1." Therefore, the chapters are slightly off. Perhaps the prologue is set in Numenor; perhaps not.

>The Nazgul should be perfectly-preserved Men. They are not
>windblown ghosts! I ran into the same nonsense you've described.

Then the three of us can commiserate. During the roleplay, I lost long-time online friends over disagreements about the Nazgûl, their bodies and their powers. Below is a collection of a few of the negative comments I have received over the past 16 months. I call it the "Hall of Shame." Smile smiley face

Perhaps you will think these are as humorous as we do.

"You portray the Nazgûl as having too much power."
"Disturbing wraith romance."
"This bloodlust/lust thing is really disturbing."
"I am disturbed at the torture and angst and would prefer that those logs be private because they are damaging. It's not exactly what they say. It's the debasement, all the Mordor stuff. In my opinion it is destructive roleplay and it depresses me."

I suppose this person wanted the SD archives to be password-protected because of their "disturbing content." Smile smiley face

>The films, IMHO, did nothing to help. Especially with the horses.
>Doesn't anyone actually *think* about these things? Oh, and as for
>the armor: I got to see the WK armor up close & personal at FIDM
>last year. It was rusty, broken, and had holes! WTF? Why wear it?
>Why bother? It's trash, just like the clothes he wore. It's almost like
>the costume people thought that somehow the Nazgul hadn't
>bothered to change their clothes in the last 4000 years or so.

I could not agree with you more. The book "The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare" tells in narative form, as though it were from the canon, all about the "neglected armor" of the Nazgûl and the Mouth of Sauron. Read it for a laugh.

>The Directives sound more like something that WK would issue,
>rather than Sauron.

Let us say in The Circles, Sauron becomes a bit of a control freak at times. Smile smiley face

Besides, the Nazgûl are busy with other things in this section.

>Yes, Gothmog has to be Nazgul #3. No Orc would get that kind of
>rank.
>Khamul of course was in charge at Dol Guldur, with another one. In
>"Circles" I would assume that he's still there?

I agree completely with you about Gothmog. By logic, it would seem that he would be the third, the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. (Second after Khamûl)

Yes, Khamûl's messenger is still in Dol Guldur, but not during this part of the story, for there is a war going on.

Very interesting discussion, Khazar, and we appreciate your comments very much. Sorry about the redundancy of "maidens." Smile smiley face

Now Elfhild has some comments.

Angmar

***

Khazar,

Indeed, "Yozayan" was meant to be mysterious and surreal, filled with beauty and intrigue. It will make sense with the rest of the story in time. The idylic scenery and discriptions of Chapters 1 and 2 were meant to be peaceful and serene, the "calm before the storm" - the storm being the war, the defeat at Pelennor, the Months of Darkness and the death of the twins' mother. I try to keep from repeating the same word too many times, but somehow I missed the "maiden" problem. I shall have to sacrifice a few of the "maidens."....

"The Circles” started in a roleplaying game called “The Second Darkness” and the whole story was meant to be 2-5 chat log chapters. However, as Angmar and I wrote, we kept getting good ideas and before long there were ten chapters… and then there were twenty… It was then when we decided to make this a novel-length story; however, what we had written beforehand started in the middle of things with no introduction.

I had hoped to quickly bridge the gaps between point A and point B in approximately 13 chapters, retaining much of the original roleplay’s plot. Yet we decided that this rushed things too much, and there were many writing opportunities that we did not want to miss (the life of a captive can be very interesting...). As we wrote, too, we ran into many problems with logic in converting roleplay to story form. What makes a good roleplay can make a convoluted story. Also, roleplay can cheat characters, for one cannot be thinking of character development and giving a character interesting quirks and qualities when forced to write on the spot.

In SD, Elfhild and Elffled were just… there. One was bossy, the other was quiet, but basically all they did was serve wine, echo Western propaganda with the "good guys" and receive mild sexual harassment from the villain. I did not want them to be such, but it was the way they came out, both because I was rushed and because of the influence of another roleplayer who insisted everything stay G-rated and sickeningly sweet.

Do not consider what is currently happening in The Circles as the “back-story.” It is a tale of life, always continuing and changing, as told from the eyes of the two girls and the people they meet. Yes, the Nazgul do play a big part, but their constant presence is not for some time to come. There will be a chapter or so coming up soon in which we will see more of them, however.

Thanks for reading. Smile smiley face

Elfhild

Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:32 am

Thank you so much for answering my silly questions. Nobody but you have ever answered me here, it feels good.
Smile smiley face

Yes your take on the Black Breath control must be correct. I have not thought of the effect on their own troops.

And nz may be virile and such. But still I think that will be a mistake to make them 100% normal kindhearted hotties only ... Shocked smiley face

..invisible. That was Khazar's way.

I have just read Khazar's fic, the Cursed Queen of Angmar. Very Good fic, EXCELLENT fic! ... but for one thing. All those babies and changing of nappies... Sad smiley face

ops:
I can't put my feelings into words easily, but it destroyed all the good impression.

Please, please, please, NO NAZGUL BABIES!!!!

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Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"