Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"

Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:53 pm

Aganuzir,

"Strange that Swithulf, the simple miller's son, seems to know about Rivendell and the Elves dwelling there (as compared with Eomer's, as well as Boromir's and Faramir's, ignorance of the place in LOtR)."

In any army of any age of history, rumors among the men are always abundant. If some rumor starts, no matter how strange, it can spread like wildfire. Some are true, some are false and some are part truth. Somehow Swithulf had heard about the Elves, whether through "A friend who knows a fellow who has a cousin... told me" or actually hearing legitimate news. One thing would seem certain: these simple peasants have traveled far away from their homes and have come into contact with people whom they never would have met back in the village, and they know considerably more about the world than they did before.

These remarks about the Elves are also a form of foreshadowing. Tolkien and other writers have used this device to explain things. One character will say something just so another character will reply with the correct answer or elaboration. In this way, things are revealed to the reader.

"I liked the portraits of Osric, Oslaf and Swithulf. However, I would have expected their mood to be not so cheerful."

Eomer had allowed them to go hunting, knowing that this would both help add to the larder and give the men a morale boost. This hunting trip had brightened their moods considerably, and Osric, Oslaf and Swithulf were enjoying the comforts of sitting around the fire with full stomachs.

"'An old campaigner, I see,' he said. 'They say that men who go warring afield look ever to the next hope of food and drink...'" - Beregond, Minas Tirith

In war, there is a thing of stress relief after long marches and in camp, many times the men let it off in many ways - drinking, gambling, roughhousing, games, singing, swimming, sports and even plays, if they were bivouacked a while. A number of songs from the American Civil War were pure "fun songs" such as "Eating Goober Peas" and "Mister, Here's Your Mule" and were sung around many campfires at night. There was one bawdy comedy song from the Civil War that told about an actual businessman, John Haroldson, who wanted to collect the contents of chamberpots so that the nitre in urine could be salvaged and combined with charcoal and sulfur and made into gunpowder. The song is sung to the tune of "O Christmas Tree." They had fun at the camps. Smile smiley face

There was one memorable case in the American Civil War where the Southern troops engaged in a massive snowball battle while encamped for the winter. Even officers participated and the men were so enthusiastic in their mock battle that a number of bloodied faces and broken limbs were reported as a result of too earnest participation.

I always found the scene in the old film "All Quiet on the Western Front" a memorable one. In one scene the German soldiers, who are now in France, go to a river, pond or stream where they laugh and splash in the water like young boys. I cannot remember all the details of this film, but I think by this time, these fellows were on their way to becoming seasoned warriors.

Now that I think of it, the scenes are similar, but I did not pattern the scene at the pond on either the book or the film. I just know how people behave when there is a break in the cruel realities of war.

"And another thing, as far as I know, the best way to get rid of a leech is to touch it with a burning twig. It would be easier than to waste precious salt on it."

There are several methods to remove aquatic leaches, whether touching it with a burning twig, salting them, using your fingers to work their suckers out, applying vinegar, using sand to rub them off, etc. The salting method is the one with which I am most personally familiar, so I went with that. I have had experience removing ticks by using still-hot match heads and applying them to their rear. In a number of those cases, the ticks died before they ever backed out and I ended up pulling them off with my fingers. Some people, who are not squeamish, just pull leeches off like ticks. Leeches will come off on their own once they become full, but most people do not like waiting for this to happen. By the way, when I have discussed this topic with Elfhild, for some reason she seems to be very reluctant to talk about it. Smile smiley face

Hmmm... perhaps she still has memories of that scene in Second Darkness when a quack physician wanted to use leeches to bleed Eowyn and Pippin to heal them of the Black Shadow. Smile smiley face

Angmar

***

"It is nice to learn that the Riders of Rohan have not perished. Eomer is still around, but not Theoden, Merry or Eowyn. That leaves the readers wondering what has actually happened at Pelennor. Was it as in SD? But, as the Circles stand on their own, I think it would be nice to learn about the battle from one of the survivors. Has no one seen Angmar-Eowyn fight? If they did, they should be haunted by memories."

None of the men from Grenefeld would have directly seen the confrontation between Eowyn and Angmar. They were peasants, not king's knights. Few actually saw the confrontation - "The knights of his house lay slain about him, or else mastered by the madness of their steeds were borne far away. Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young..." Of course, in an alternative universe in which Eowyn does not get to tell her tale for she is captured and Merry is killed, we never discounted men who were wounded and lived long enough to see what happened and then tell someone about it. Or someone who was not wounded or slain at all, but merely in a swoon and woke up at an opportune time. Someone had to know about Eowyn being taken captive and Merry's death. The scribes need to know these things some way, or else they cannot write about them. (Of course no Elf was present at the Music of the Ainur and still somehow the Elvish loremasters were able to tell exactly what happened.... hmmmm.... Smile smiley face

)

I did imply what befell Eowyn and Merry at Pelennor in Chapter 4, but I was vague and poetic...

"Then the Dark King descended from the heavens and Théoden King was slain, crushed beneath his great white horse, and both king and steed lay beneath the one who felled them. Sun gleamed upon golden hair and silver helm; blood was shed; a blade clattered to the ground and a small voice was silenced forever. The bonds of love and kinship soon gave way to shackles of iron and ever did the Shadow laugh and delight in the spoils of war."

Theoden falls just like in the book. Eowyn and Merry confront the Witch-king (golden hair and silver helm). Then Merry gets killed (a blade clattered to the ground and a small voice was silenced forever) and Eowyn is taken captive (shackles of iron and ever did the Shadow laugh and delight in the spoils of war...).

However, I did not want to write a detailed account of the battle, for there is a chapter already written about Pelennor, but it is far in the future. In the beginning Chapter 4 (which Chapter 18 picks up on) was meant to tie in with this other chapter later in the story. At first I was going to be very vague and mysterious about the war for the story was going to be told from Elfhild/Elffled's point of view. However, since then we decided that was not the best idea and that we should branch things out a little with multiple plotlines, much like what Tolkien did in Two Towers and Return of the King.

"Strange that Swithulf, the simple miller's son, seems to know about Rivendell and the Elves dwelling there (as compared with Eomer's, as well as Boromir's and Faramir's, ignorance of the place in LOtR)."

Well, though it was not stated, this is what had happened previously. Sometime before the end of the siege of Dol Amroth (May 23) when both the Gondor and Rohan armies were fighting as a combined force in the South, Aragorn sent messenger(s) to Rivendell asking for the assistance of the Elves. Though most of the people of Gondor and Rohan do not know the location of Rivendell, there are a few who do, such as Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond's two sons, Legolas, Gimli... Being simple peasants, the three men of Grenefeld probably never heard of Rivendell before and still do not know its exact location other than being somewhere in the vague "north," but perhaps Swithulf was present when Aragorn was speaking to the men, or had heard rumors from other people. Perhaps the army command wanted the men to know so it would hearten them; in this case, the information merely passed down the chain of command.

I have submitted changes for Chapter 18 that should better clarify this matter.

Elfhild

Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:04 am

Rumors of Elves would have been around, just as they still are. Tales of wanderers "bewitched" by them, of stolen children and eerily beautiful music, of strange creatures that danced in the moonlight--all of these would be told in Rohan and many other places as well.

Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:21 pm

Angmar,
You must be right about the necessity of stress relief in dire situations. Very interesting are your examples from the American Civil War. Thank you.

And you have enlightening info on leeches and ticks, though the subject may be disturbing to some gentle souls... Smile smiley face

>I have had experience removing ticks by using still-hot match heads
>and applying them to their rear. In a number of those cases, the ticks
>died before they ever backed out and I ended up pulling them off
>with my fingers***
Speaking of ticks (Ixodes spp.), here, unlike with leeches, I do have personal experience. There is nothing better than putting a drop of oil on them and waiting. Needing air, they detach quickly.

Elfhild,
Thank you for replying to my other questions. Sorry, I have forgotten the Fourth Chapter. I had to re-read the story before asking, but having read SD, I now tend to mix what I know from SD and what from the Circles. My fault entirely.

>At first I was going to be very vague and mysterious about the war for the
>story was going to be told from Elfhild/Elffled's point of view. However,
>since then we decided that was not the best idea and that we should branch
>things out a little with multiple plotlines, much like what Tolkien did in Two
>Towers and Return of the King.

It is an excellent idea, IMO. Personally, I always prefer things to be stated explicitly. I like them to be poetic, but I don't like them vague. Smile smiley face

Of course it is just my personal taste, no more. Many others may think differently.

> (Of course no Elf was present at the Music of the Ainur and still
>somehow the Elvish loremasters were able to tell exactly what happened.... hmmmm.... )

No big deal, there were lots of maiar present. What were they doing in Aman for more than 6000 years? Bored to death, they were having tea with the Elves, Smile smiley face

telling them enlightening stories about the Music and the Creation of Arda.

>I have submitted changes for Chapter 18 that should better clarify this matter.
Yes, it is much better now, I think. Thank you.

Best wishes,
Aganuzir

Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:28 pm

Aganuzir,

"You must be right about the necessity of stress relief in dire situations. Very interesting are your examples from the American Civil War. Thank you."

Besides the famous snowball battle, another of my favorite Civil War stories concerns the monotony of military life in long winter bivouacks. In some situations, the men would make rude huts out of whatever materials were available. It was not uncommon for some "wit" to block off the chimney of his "friends'" huts and watch to see what happened when the shelter filled with smoke. In a few cases, the offender, when caught, was beaten to within an inch of his life.

"And you have enlightening info on leeches and ticks, though the subject may be disturbing to some gentle souls..."

I tend to have that effect upon many. Twisted Evil smiley face

"Speaking of ticks (Ixodes spp.), here, unlike with leeches, I do have personal experience. There is nothing better than putting a drop of oil on them and waiting. Needing air, they detach quickly."

I will have to try that remedy next time. There are things a lot worse than ticks, such as hog lice. Very challenging to remove.

The account of using salt to remove leeches comes from some of my relatives who used it when they had the misfortune to have the parasites attached to them. People should not think, however, that by any means leeches are some great evil.

According to an article in "Science in Africa" by Aisha El-Awady, "The leech’s saliva is truly extraordinary containing a number of chemical compounds useful in medicine. These include a local anesthetic that the leech uses to avoid detection by the host, the anti-coagulant hirudin that can help prevent heart attacks and strokes, a vasodilator and a prostaglandin that help reduce swelling. The leech’s gut harbors a bacterium known as Aeromonan hydrophila. This bacterium aids in the digestion of ingested blood and produces an antibiotic that kills other bacteria that may cause putrefaction." (http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2003/july/leech.htm)

The article, "Maggots and Leeches Make a Comeback," by the way, might not be for the squeamish. However, anything that advances medical science is a positive factor in my book.

Angmar

***

"Thank you for replying to my other questions. Sorry, I have forgotten the Fourth Chapter. I had to re-read the story before asking, but having read SD, I now tend to mix what I know from SD and what from the Circles. My fault entirely."

So far, in the Circles, everything has been about Elfhild, Elffled or those with them. Chapter 4 "The Clouds of War" covers March 15 to mid-May 3019 and tells about the war in the South and other places of Middle-earth. As the story progresses, I might go back and add more details to this chapter. I have slightly edited it several times already since its original posting. Chapter 18 picks up on what happened after mid-May and advances that plotline up to June 5.

"It is an excellent idea, IMO. Personally, I always prefer things to be stated explicitly. I like them to be poetic, but I don't like them vague. Of course it is just my personal taste, no more. Many others may think differently."

The war shall not be so vague anymore. We have decided to linger there a while...

"No big deal, there were lots of maiar present. What were they doing in Aman for more than 6000 years? Bored to death, they were having tea with the Elves, telling them enlightening stories about the Music and the Creation of Arda."

Tea, talk, and never forget the pleasure gardens of Lórien in which grow fumellar, the flowers of sleep, or more commonly known as poppies. "There too grew the poppies glowing redly in the dusk, and those the Gods called fumellar the flowers of sleep - and Lórien used them much in his enchantments." - The Coming of the Valar, Book of Lost Tales

No wonder the Elves wanted to go to Valinor! Smile smiley face

Elfhild

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:01 am

More questions:

Who is screaming? The mother? why? Five minutes later she's saying he isn't dead. Shouldn't it be another woman who starts wailing?

Isn't striking the woman a violation of the Directive?

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:00 pm

"Who is screaming? The mother? why? Five minutes later she's saying he isn't dead. Shouldn't it be another woman who starts wailing?"

Breguswith, the mother, is by herself, having slept at a small distance away from the others in her troop, just like Elfhild and Elffled. They are not all that close together when they sleep, but the group does have its own assigned space away from the other groups. It is dark and no one can see. None of the women even knew what was going on and only started to stir from sleep after the wailing began.

This is more or less told from the point of view of Elfhild and Elffled and what they see and hear. The sequence goes like this in order:

The captives are sleeping.
The sounds of loud wailing are heard.
Elfhild asks her sister what is going on.
Elffled looks around but can see nothing clear in the darkness.
The other members of that troop of ten begin to stir and ask each other the same things.
The orcs start to complain about the wailing and then demand to know who is doing it.
There is another wail, then sobbing and the command of an orc guard to be quiet. "We'll hear no more of this! Close your trap! He is gone!"
There is a shriek and then the captives hear Breguswith cry, "He is not! He is not! He cannot be!" This identifies who is doing the wailing. Obviously she is distraught and quickly goes into denial.
The orc guard tells her that her baby is dead. Dialog ensues, showing that the woman is obviously hysterical with grief.

"Isn't striking the woman a violation of the Directive?"

The directives state: "All slaves are to be preserved intact except for the usual wear and tear of this commodity by travel or disease. No officer or man is allowed to do aught else than restrain female slaves or their issue by use of threat and intimidation, and no serious bodily injuries may be inflicted upon those in your care."

Slapping falls under "intimidation" and "restraining of female slaves" and not a "serious bodily injury." Mild forms of discipline are just common practice upon slaves and in the army, though only to be done when necessary. All along the orcs have been using whips to encourage slow walkers to speed up, though the blows hit covered legs and thus were not overly damaging to the skin, though mild scarring is perfectly acceptable according to the directives. This is a rough society and compassion is not that common. The laws are written for Mordorians in a land where torture, beheading and impaling are commonplace.

Elfhild

Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:27 pm

I see no problem with the chapter and the sequence of events. The mother started wailing as she saw her baby cold and unmoving and understood he was dead. But understanding and accepting are different things. And yet another step is to give her dead baby to the orcs for the pot. No wonder she denied his death, what else could she say to defend the body?

But I have a question that probably belongs more to the "Hunger" chapter. Why didn't Elfhild think of the possibility to ask the Easterlings about the outcome of the Pelennor Battle? They still had no idea what had happened to Rohan army, to their menfolk. Wouldn't the possibility to learn their fate be a much stronger motive to join the Easterlings than the sweetmeats?

Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:02 am

"But I have a question that probably belongs more to the 'Hunger' chapter. Why didn't Elfhild think of the possibility to ask the Easterlings about the outcome of the Pelennor Battle? They still had no idea what had happened to Rohan army, to their menfolk. Wouldn't the possibility to learn their fate be a much stronger motive to join the Easterlings than the sweetmeats?"

At the time the "Hunger" chapter takes place (June 5 - Utana's troop got there on the 4th), the men have not been there long and the twins do not know what types they are. Elffled was traumatized by the three kisses and thus was paranoid. The older women of this troop, like many others, have a stiff-necked pride and did not wish to fraternize with the enemy. They would think it to be stooping low to ask the accursed Easterlings for food or news. Elfhild was easily swayed by a boring diet and curiosity, but fear of past experiences made her sister's determination strong and Elfhild did not press her. If there had been younger girls in the troop, Elfhild would have gone with them to see the Easterlings and left her sister behind.

If Elfhild had talked with the men, probably she would have been too timid to ask for anything other than for food, and if she did get enough nerve to ask about the war in the South, they probably would have given her false information or propaganda.

Elfhild

Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:43 am

Chapter Twenty and Twenty-one.

A very captivating chapter. I loved the interaction between Thamtan and the Nine. Both chilling and hilarious. "The Silent Ones" must be simple wraiths (morgul-knife products)? The Morgul Lord was great!
Why did the Eighth Nazgul (Skrishau?) smile morbidly at the mention of Gandalf? Has he got something personal against the Wizard?
It is a bit strange that the Morgul Lord has left the actual direction of the troops to the Easterling, and joined the other Eight to fly over the besieged fortress. He could have helped at the gates, at least. It was not his way at the Pelennor.

Poor Dungha, still dreaming of blue eyes and the directives.
I liked the description of the Khandrim cavalry's preparations for battle. So exotic, with berserker draughts and dancing virgins. Interesting that the nazgul are referred to as Priest- Kings and Gods. Was it the draught that made nazgul presence feel intoxicating, "raining down feelings of benediction upon all the troops"?

But a real gem was Sergeant Doungha's motivational speech. "Remember how their ancestors came to these shores and took our people back in slavery to their own lands, some to die in sacrifice to their Unholy Gods in the Dark Temple upon their island!"
It seems that the Easterlings are not aware that the "Unholy Gods in the Dark Temple" in Numenor are the same as they are currently worshipping, and that their own Master has built the Temple on the Island...

Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:52 pm

Aganuzir,

"A very captivating chapter. I loved the interaction between Thamtan and the Nine. Both chilling and hilarious. 'The Silent Ones' must be simple wraiths (morgul-knife products)?"

Glad you enjoyed the chapter. "The Silent Ones" - some are the products of Morgul Blades but the others - many are not sure about them. They should be watched. Smile smiley face

"The Morgul Lord was great!"

After roleplaying Angmar for almost two years, I feel now we have much in common. Smile smiley face

"Why did the Eighth Nazgul (Skrishau?) smile morbidly at the mention of Gandalf? Has he got something personal against the Wizard?"

Skrishau has a morbid sense of humor. There is nothing personal against the Wizard, but Number Eight has been known on occasion to enjoy watching and dealing torture. (More than one occasion actually...)

He will be back from time to time with his droll wit. Smile smiley face

"It is a bit strange that the Morgul Lord has left the actual direction of the troops to the Easterling, and joined the other Eight to fly over the besieged fortress. He could have helped at the gates, at least. It was not his way at the Pelennor."

This is my second summer of exploring ways to attack Helm's Deep. I am getting to feel at home in the place. Smile smiley face

To get to the Gate of Helm's Deep, one must first ride up a bridge (Tolkien called it a causeway) over the Deeping Stream and then up a ramp which is raised above the surface of the Hornrock. With a battering ram on that reasonably high and narrow bridge, there is not much space to work with (the Atlas estimates that the ramp is only 10 feet wide). If the defenders charged out of the gate (as they did in the book and movie), the enemies on the bridge would either be cast or forced to jump from the ramp or topple from the bridge, fall into a gorge and land in the Deeping Stream. An orc would stand a good chance of breaking bones or dying from the fall and a falling rider and his horse would possibly land in the stream, resulting in injury and/or death.

I can comment personally on the sensation of riding a horse over a narrow, dangerous causeway in a perilous situation. When I was a teenager (many long years ago), some friends and I were out riding on the main highway. Traffic was bad and so I had what I thought was a "brilliant" idea - get off the main road, short cut across country. Then we would ride beside the tracks over a high, built up railroad ramp and bridge. The space along the tracks was very narrow and the horses resented very much putting their feet down on the ties. The ramp itself was high and then we came to the bridge. There was a great drop down to the water and the expanse was long. If a train had come from either direction, it would be either face the train or the drop to the water, both probably ending in death. Yes, it was foolish but we are inclined to do those things when we are younger. Smile smiley face

In this situation, I felt the Morgul Lord might show more prudence than I did. Then again, maybe not. Smile smiley face

At Minas Tirith, the ground before the gates is relatively flat with a gentle slope. It is far more approachable on horseback or on foot than Helm's Deep with its daunting causeway and the possibility of the foe rushing out upon the attackers. The last thing Angmar wants to do is plunge over the side of the causeway into rocky stream. The horse does not think much of it either. Smile smiley face

Here is a picture of the movie's Helm's Deep which does not completely agree with Tolkien's drawing or the Atlas:
http://www.lordoftherings.net/legend/lands/helmsdeep/images/helmsdeep1_large.jpg
The bridge (Causeway) can be seen to the right.

Here is Tolkien's drawing of Helm's Deep. The author of the page thinks that this sketch might be an interim drawing, but it is very close to what is in the canon.
http://larsen-family.us/~1066/jrrhelmsdeep.html

Here is the drawing from the German version of the Atlas of Middle-earth:
http://www.nazgul.de/Karte/Mittelerde/Karten/HDR/thumbs/imagepages/helms klamm.html
The Ramp is called "Rampe" and the Causeway is called "Dammweg." The "Großes Tor" is the Great Gate.

Whether one chooses to accept Tolkien's drawing, the Atlas, the film or their own ideas, still Helm's Deep is a formidable foe.

"Poor Dungha, still dreaming of blue eyes and the directives.
I liked the description of the Khandrim cavalry's preparations for battle. So exotic, with berserker draughts and dancing virgins. Interesting that the nazgul are referred to as Priest-Kings and Gods. Was it the draught that made nazgul presence feel intoxicating, 'raining down feelings of benediction upon all the troops'?"

Though the Nazgul were intoning spells all during the situation, the draught had more to do with it than anything. After drinking the draught, the virgins danced before them. The dance coincided with the mild, preliminary phases of hallucinogenic mushroom ingestion. By the time that was over, the men would be on their way to being mentally prepared for battle. The Nazgûl's spells continued the euphoria and then when the mushrooms had done their work, the men would be more than ready to kill anything or anyone in sight. Indeed these men are very much like the Berserkers of Old Norse, Scythians and other peoples of Europe and Asia.

Tolkien himself called the Numenorean kings "Priest-kings." He likened the Nazgul to members of a religious cult. Since the Nine are closest to Sauron, they are dark "priest-kings" in a sense. It is always encouraging to know "that the gods are with us."

"It seems that the Easterlings are not aware that the 'Unholy Gods in the Dark Temple' in Numenor are the same as they are currently worshiping, and that their own Master has built the Temple on the Island..."

Obviously over a period of time, history was forgotten (if some of the people to the Far East ever knew about Numenor or the Temple) and re-told by Sauron's agents. The Dark Lord always likes to see the truth being twisted, especially when it benefits Him. Sauron probably considers it all a very humorous jest, but the methods are very effective in thought control. After enough time and propounding lies and trickery, the truth is forgotten and twisted myths live on.

(Since this is an AU, medium for exploration, and deals with "what might have been if the War of the Rings had a different outcome," all views that are expressed are those of the authors. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to view things in an Alternative Universe. We try to base everything we write on much research in many areas and logic. Whether we succeed or fail, we always have fun trying and writing, and life is far too short not to do something that is enjoyable to one's self and hopefully to others.)

Angmar

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Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"