Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"

Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:48 am

Angmar,

Thank you for answering my previous quiestions and for posting more chapters. Here is my belated review.

Chapters 22-24

The chapters are truly captivating and very well written, as usual; especially I liked the description of the battlefield in chapter 24. Kourosh, Doungha and Touraj have already become dear to me. I fear for their fate at the hands of inhuman foes, the Elves. Even the accursed Glorfindel came at last out of Rivendell! What is worse, the Powers seemed to meddle again directly into the affairs of Middle Earth, affecting weather. Shocked smiley face

By the way, how many Elves do you believe were left in ME by this time? I always had an impression that they were too few to be able to put forth a sufficient force anymore.

Looking at the direction of the Mordor army, I have a feeling that it could have been better. The Lieutenant of the army, Tahmtan, seems hopelessly drunk (kapurdi overdose) and useless. The Morgul Lord made a mistake to leave him in charge. Perhaps, he had to join the other Eight to increase the combined power, which was greater when all the Nine were assembled.
But still the nazgul could do little against the Elves. They would have done better to go harass the regrouping Rohirrim instead.

Interesting, that the nazgul use spell-songs. I don’t think Tolkien ever described them singing, not shrieking.

Tolkien wrote in the Unfinished Tales, that Khamul was the most powerful of the nazgul, after the Black Captain himself, but I don’t think Tolkien has ever described either of them as being “devout”. Were they, really? Slaves of the Nine Rings, yes, but “devout” to Sauron?

I like nazgul bickering constantly. It must be trying to serve in a company composed of 9 egotistic ex-Kings.
But I have problems with Skrishau’s character. I remember him from SD, he was really QUIET, spending his days flying between Rohan, Barad-Dur and Dol-Guldur in an endless circle and happy in his solitude. I liked him very much like that. But in the Circles, something has happened to Skri. He is again a remarkable, but a quite different personality. And you have to agree, he is not QUIET anymore. He is the pain in the neck of the whole company. If he is called “quiet”, it could only be in jest.

As for Angmar, this time I am slightly disappointed. I feel he is not formidable enough in these chapters. He was once, when he saved Rut. But on other occasions, he looks too emotional for my taste, loosing his temper with underlings and elves and struggling out of his coat instead of quenching the fire by magick. It would have been better to interrupt the Black Shadow spell, instead of loosing his face like that. He also lost his verbal exchange with Glorfindel. In general, he could have used more humor and patience.

Strange that the nazgul do not wear their Rings. (I think they do not, as their clothes are visible). I believe, from LOTR it is clear, that to wield the power of a ring one must put it on. I think wielding rings to full power could have helped a lot.

Loved the long-forgotten memory of Angmar flashing through Rut’s mind. It makes one want to learn more… It is things like that that I find most captivating.

All in all, it was a pleasure reading these chapters.

Regards,
Aganuzir

Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:56 pm

Aganuzir,

"The chapters are truly captivating and very well written, as usual; especially I liked the description of the battlefield in chapter 24. Kourosh, Doungha and Touraj have already become dear to me."

Thank you very much for your well thought out and most appreciated review. These original characters, such as Kourosh, Daungha and Tooraj, have all the strengths, weaknesses and foibles of humans. None of them are "super heroes"; in actuality they are rather average.

The battlefield carnage is based on knowledge gained from long years of study of historic battles, going all the way back to Greek and Roman times. I have added the realism that only the photographs of actual bloating corpses and the faces of death in the Civil War can have.

"I fear for their fate at the hands of inhuman foes, the Elves. Even the accursed Glorfindel came at last out of Rivendell! What is worse, the Powers seemed to meddle again directly into the affairs of Middle Earth, affecting weather."

In my rereadings of Lord of the Rings, I began to look for signs that the Valar were more active than they appeared to be on the surface. There are hints all the way through: the Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar; western breezes; sunlight gleaming off barrow treasures, on Eowyn's hair and Theoden's shield; the stars obscured by clouds and the clouds being blown away, such as at Pelennor; "cleansing" rains; use of the eagles; and perhaps the most obvious, the Istari's appearance - Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast and the two Blue Wizards.

Signs that Mordor seems to be gaining in power are chill eastern or northern winds and clouds of darkness which obscure the stars.

Weather is not just weather in Middle-earth. I believe that the weather signifies the Powers of Arda striving against each other. As an example, see this quote from The Hobbit:

"More terrible still are thunder and lightning in the [Misty] mountains at night, when storms come up from East and West make war. The lightning splinters on the peaks, and rocks shiver, and great crashes split the air and go rolling and tumbling into every cave and hollow; and the darkness is filled with overwhelming noise and sudden light." - The Hobbit, "Over Hill and Under Hill," page 66

One time in Second Darkness, there was a subtle battle between the western and northern/eastern breezes. Smile smiley face

I always admired the similarity between the Silmarillion and Greek and Roman mythology. During the siege of Troy, the gods and goddesses favor one side or the other. Tolkien never indicates that the Valar are directly involved but he hints at the behind-the-scenes involvement all the way through LOTR. I decided in the Circles to lean more towards Greek and Roman mythology, and while the Valar will not take an active part in what happens, they will be watching from time to time. In Book of Lost Tales, Tulkas and Oromë have much fiercer tempers, but for the sake of the preservation of Middle-earth, they will not become that extreme in The Circles.

"By the way, how many Elves do you believe were left in ME by this time? I always had an impression that they were too few to be able to put forth a sufficient force anymore."

That is the same impression that I have had. However, it was decided in Second Darkness that the only way that there would be any chance at all for the West to win was if the Elves came to the aid of the Rohirrim and Gondorians. The writer for Elves in SD set a ridiculously high number for the Elves and I discounted that in the Circles. There, their chief benefit to the West is to add more numbers to a greatly lessened force of Rohirrim and for the sheer psychological force the Elves would impart upon their enemies.

"Looking at the direction of the Mordor army, I have a feeling that it could have been better."

Long ago I realized that to make orderly, reasonable sense out of these battles in Middle-earth, I needed to depart a good deal from the fantasy element. Therefore, I have relied upon my knowledge of military history and applied the factors of false judgment, mistakes, poor planning, temper, over-eager optimism, and other elements involved in historic battles.

As well as being based somewhat on Fornost, the Second Battle of Helm's Deep is also very loosely based on the Second Battle of Franklin, Tennessee, November 30, 1864. Here the Union Army of Ohio, led by Major General John M. Schofield, and the Confederate Army of Tennessee, commanded by General John Bell Hood, fought a decisive battle which ended in victory for the Union forces.

"The Lieutenant of the army, Tahmtan, seems hopelessly drunk (kapurdi overdose) and useless."

General John Bell Hood, the Southern Commander at Franklin, had a withered arm and an amputated leg and had to be hoisted upon his saddle and strapped on the horse. Because of his battle injuries, he had become addicted to laudanum (a tincture of opium in whiskey) and was often incompacitated by his addiction. He was reckless to the point of foolishness and was very erratic in his behavior.

Angered by the fact that General Scofield's forces had marched around his army in the night when Hood was "stoned" on opium, he vowed to destroy Scofield's army. Because of his emotional problem, he was also angry at his own army, considering them weak. He was determined to prove that his men could attack a heavy defended Union position in breastworks and he hurled his army against the Union forces over and over again in seventeen distinct assaults over five hours. In the process, he destroyed his own army.

"Having proved even to Hood's satisfaction that they could assault breastworks, the Army of Tennessee had shattered itself beyond the possibility of ever doing so again." — Historian James McPherson, "Battle Cry of Freedom"

"The Morgul Lord made a mistake to leave him in charge."

The Southern President, Jefferson Davis, who had put Hood in charge learned much to his chagrin that Hood was a terrible mistake for the South.

"Perhaps, he had to join the other Eight to increase the combined power, which was greater when all the Nine were assembled.
But still the nazgul could do little against the Elves. They would have done better to go harass the regrouping Rohirrim instead."

The shock of seeing Glorfindel proved too much for the Morgul Lord and he let his anger take charge, a serious mistake for leaders in battle. "'Aim for the bright one!' Angmar screamed, infuriated." To him, it appeared to be another Battle of Fornost and in his fears, he made it so. They will get back to the Rohirrim, though.

"As for Angmar, this time I am slightly disappointed. I feel he is not formidable enough in these chapters. He was once, when he saved Rut. But on other occasions, he looks too emotional for my taste, loosing his temper with underlings and elves and struggling out of his coat instead of quenching the fire by magick."

Yes, in this battle it was meant for him to be weak. The psychological impact of once again seeing the old enemy of Fornost would tell even on him. The sheer surprise of the Rohirrim's advent on the battle, along with the elves who had never, ever been expected; the very stress of the battle; seeing his own forces losing; the stress of the consequences should he fail; Sauron's voice in his mind; the Nazgûl bickering among themselves, reflecting old grievances, both personal and politic - the sum of it all had its effect. It is no small wonder that he lashed out even at one of his closest brothers, Rutfîmûrz. At least he has not retreated so far.

"It would have been better to interrupt the Black Shadow spell, instead of loosing his face like that. He also lost his verbal exchange with Glorfindel. In general, he could have used more humor and patience."

Angmar lost all the way around and the battle is not yet over.

"Interesting, that the nazgul use spell-songs. I don’t think Tolkien ever described them singing, not shrieking."

These "songs" are more in the vein of Sauron's "Song of Sorcery" where both he and Finrod Felagund were in a sorcery match. It is not actual singing; it is more chanting in sing-song poetic words. However, to everyone on the ground, it sounds like incomprehensible, shrieking which freezes the blood of mortal enemies. The Nazgûl will be "singing" (chanting) more in a subsequent chapter.

Remember the harshness of the Black Speech in which they sing/chant. This will never sound pleasant to mortal ears.

"It was a call, or a signal - there were words in that cry, though I could not catch them. But no hobbit has such a voice." - Frodo Baggins, "A Shortcut to Mushrooms," Fellowship of the Ring, p. 100

"The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion, p. 289

"Tolkien wrote in the Unfinished Tales, that Khamul was the most powerful of the nazgul, after the Black Captain himself, but I don’t think Tolkien has ever described either of them as being 'devout'. Were they, really? Slaves of the Nine Rings, yes, but 'devout' to Sauron?"

I think with some of the Nine kings it would be a forced devotion, while I believe that others might have been actual worshipers of the Dark Lord in the Second Age. Tolkien described the Nine as warriors in a "religious cult." Perhaps the ones that are the most loyal and "devout" are the most grateful for their ill-gotten span of long life and their power. Khamûl, since his true name has possibly been retained, might be considered as one of these. A future chapter will touch upon this.

"The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the other Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. ... [The Nazgûl's] weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility." - Tolkien Letter #246, page 331 (In this "What if?" scenario by Tolkien, the Eight Nazgûl arrive at the Crack of Doom while Frodo is wearing the One Ring.)

"I like nazgul bickering constantly. It must be trying to serve in a company composed of 9 egotistic ex-Kings."

Over a course of time last year, Elfhild and I wrote almost sixty chapters (as yet still in the raw form and unedited). When these are finally ready, you will see what life is like lived among all Nine of them. There will be friendships and rivalries and old scores never settled. And bickering, oh yes, always that.

"But I have problems with Skrishau’s character. I remember him from SD, he was really QUIET, spending his days flying between Rohan, Barad-Dur and Dol-Guldur in an endless circle and happy in his solitude. I liked him very much like that. But in the Circles, something has happened to Skri. He is again a remarkable, but a quite different personality. And you have to agree, he is not QUIET anymore. He is the pain in the neck of the whole company. If he is called “quiet”, it could only be in jest."

In his cycle of delivering messages, he was very quiet. He feels that he is too removed from everything even to speak to mortals unless he is forced by circumstances to do so. In the battle, when nerves were fraying, he lost his usual reticence and took the opportunity to hurl a few verbal darts at his brothers. The Nine act one way around each other and an entirely different way around mortals.

In Second Darkness, I was never allowed to develop their personalities in the direction I wanted to take them. Yes, his name "Quiet" sometimes is more of a jest. This might also express the way the Eight wish he would be. Smile smiley face

His humor is not always appreciated. He is a good fellow, really, once you get to know him.

"Strange that the nazgul do not wear their Rings. (I think they do not, as their clothes are visible). I believe, from LOTR it is clear, that to wield the power of a ring one must put it on. I think wielding rings to full power could have helped a lot."

They do have their Rings, but they are about their necks, though I think by this time they might have mastered the ability to appear visible, either by sorcery or the power of their minds. But there are great numbers of people on the field and that is too much to ask even for them. They are having to do many things here, unleash the Black Shadow, strengthen the morale of their men, read signals and signs from the beasts, concentrate on the enemy, withstand any spells the Elves might be directing towards them and dodge those arrows, which are a threat to their beasts far more than they are to them.

Why the desire to be visible? Would they not be more formidable and fearful if they were totally invisible, which they would be if they wore their Rings? Then there is a question of greater safety by being totally invisible. They have choices to make, whether they make the right ones or wrong ones. Here, I think they would want their own troops to see them. It would be very damaging to the Mordorians' morale if they could not see where their own "talisman of fortunes" are.

"Loved the long-forgotten memory of Angmar flashing through Rut’s mind. It makes one want to learn more… It is things like that that I find most captivating."

There is much more already written that tells of the friendships that were made and of connections forged long years before that sometimes come to the surface of memory and then vanish away. There is One who has taken away the memory and only One who can restore it. Whether He does or not will happen only if it would serve His own purposes.

"All in all, it was a pleasure reading these chapters."

This was indeed a flawed battle on the part of Mordor, while the Elves, Rohirrim and Gondorians had nearly a perfect one. Tolkien did the same thing, but we tried to give more of a realistic flavor than the "they all ran from the light of the elves' faces" type of thing.

When the Second Darkness roleplay was in progress last summer, the other writers used everything from ents to eagles as attack forces, destroying part of the causeway and putting in a drawbridge (which was confusing to deal with), having Radagast making dynamite and cannon balls thrown from trebuchets, "every elf is worth 10 orcs," and Gandalf blowing up trolls. All this was quite a bit too much for me as gamemaster and I wanted to forget the whole roleplaying episode. With constant criticism that "your Nazgûl are too powerful," when actually they did not do very much, I was feeling disheartened afterwards and vowed never to include the Second Battle of Helm's Deep in the Circles. Elfhild (although she was writing on the opposite side) encouraged me this year to undertake the task again, which I did with the greatest fear and trepidation. Cutting out the marching force of ents, eagles, and all the spectacular fireworks displays, I agreed to undertake the task of revision. I do feel that I have been through quite a few battles of my own in all this. Smile smiley face

In the process, I have come to respect and hate Helm's Deep and consider it a morass and a death trap. If I ever do this again in a roleplay, I will just besiege them, cut off all supplies and let them starve. Smile smiley face

As an interesting side note about flawed battles which could be projected to this battle in the Circles - at Franklin, the Southerners had 38,000 men to the Union's 32,000, but the casualties showed the folly of Hood's poor battle strategy. There were 2,326 casualties for the Union and 6,261 for the Confederates. These numbers include 15 Confederate generals killed on the battlefield and 65 field-grade officers. A total catastrophe for the Southern force.

For any interested, you can find more about the Battle of Franklin at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Franklin

Angmar

Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:08 am

Chapter twenty-five.

Awesome chapter, Angmar! Much as I liked your battle chapters and Elfhild’s wonderful insights into Rohan girls’ mentality, this chapter surpasses all the others, IMO.

I have never read a portrayal of Sauron so close to Tolkien’s own ideas, expressed in his Letters. Sauron is usually understood as a maniacal, utterly evil, destructive being. And a not-so-bright being, in addition. Those who have read only LOTR (I don’t even mention the movie-fans) probably get this impression. The fact that Sauron wanted to bring order into the World, is practically unknown, or misunderstood. I think, that putting several quotes from the “Letters” at the end of the chapter was a very good idea: few have read them before.

I am glad that you have not fallen into the opposite pit, so to say. You have not made Sauron totally righteous, misunderstood creature. You have made him really true to Tolkien.
I easily believe that he still wanted to do Good. Not real good, but what he perceived as Good. And he was not restricted in his means and methods at all. I believe he really suffered a lot when nobody really understood him. And the long chain of defeats could affect even a maia. Yet it rings true that he still understood the meaning of justice and even mercy.

Mouth of Sauron is also exactly as I thought he was. Here, I think we have very few Tolkien writings to rely upon, either that he was cunning and crueler than any orc. But there must have been something appealing to Sauron in this guy, either than his cruelty and servility. I think you succeeded to portray him as Sauron’s most trusted servant, ALMOST his only friend, or somebody approaching a friend as closely as the Maia could ever permit.
I like you were true to Tolkien, making Mouth a mortal man. Strangely enough, often he is portrayed as a Second Age relic, somehow preserved for so long, even without a Ring. Actually, the Mouth might have been of the same age or only slightly older than Aragorn. A middle-aged man by Numenorean standards.

I don’t know why, but I always imagined that the Mouth should hate the Nazgul and be jealous of them. I see you had the same impression. And, of course, the fact that the Morgul Lord was allowed to rule his own city, use his own sigil and banner called for envy.

“Undoubtedly it is the fault of the Witch-king of Angmar. He does not quite seem the same since the South. Even though there was a great victory at Pelennor, things did not go well in the rest of the South. Considering his great losses and blunders there, perhaps he has lost confidence in himself, and thus his usefulness wanes.”

Was Mouth right? What has happened to Angmar?

“The other craved too much power, while the Lieutenant was content to be what he was.” Still the Mouth was ambitious himself, IMHO. He was certainly looking forward to become the Lord of Isengard, as he said himself in LOTR.

I like the reference to “Angmar’s past record”. Indeed, he thought more of his own kingdoms than of helping his weak Master.

“He suspected - nay, he was certain! - Angmar and several of the others had deliberately blundered in the search for the Master Ring! No one so shrewd and cunning as he knew the Witch-king to be could fail so dismally unless he deliberately wished to do so.”

I totally agree with the Mouth here. I had the same impression when I read LOTR. I always wondered why the Dark Lord had not reached the same conclusion himself?

Poor nazgul, “the loving chastisement at the Hand of their Father” looms before them…

Thank you for this chapter,
Aganuzir

Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:34 pm

Aganuzir,

"Awesome chapter, Angmar! Much as I liked your battle chapters and Elfhild’s wonderful insights into Rohan girls’ mentality, this chapter surpasses all the others, IMO."

Thank you. This is one of the most difficult chapters I ever wrote. This chapter will set the stage for the entire association of Sauron and Angmar and the Mouth.

"I have never read a portrayal of Sauron so close to Tolkien’s own ideas, expressed in his Letters. Sauron is usually understood as a maniacal, utterly evil, destructive being. And a not-so-bright being, in addition. Those who have read only LOTR (I don’t even mention the movie-fans) probably get this impression. The fact that Sauron wanted to bring order into the World, is practically unknown, or misunderstood. I think, that putting several quotes from the “Letters” at the end of the chapter was a very good idea: few have read them before."

The nature of Sauron cannot be remotely understood unless one has read the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Lost Tales. It also helps to read the Letters and HOME. To see Sauron as a "maniacal, utterly evil, destructive being" is a shallow interpretation, but I know many do, especially movie fans and those who have read only LOTR. These portrayals of Sauron as a fiend who clasps his hands gleefully and laughs wildly, "I am evil!" while being surrounded by a group of dim-witted henchmen is a cliche of standard, stereotypical villains. This image is only a reflection of immature minds who see everything as either black or white.

I see Sauron basically as Tolkien saw him, "a reformer" who became too caught up in his own reforms. Tolkien basically said the same thing about Saruman. This desire to reform or preserve is a major theme in Tolkien's writings. Sauron is a powerful being whose makeup is designed to create, order and help. That is forgotten so many times in writing about him.

The quotes from the "Letters" are to help readers understand more about this side of this misunderstood and misinterpreted character.

"I am glad that you have not fallen into the opposite pit, so to say. You have not made Sauron totally righteous, misunderstood creature. You have made him really true to Tolkien."

No one in the Circles is truly righteous. There are merely degrees of "unrighteousness."

"I easily believe that he still wanted to do Good. Not real good, but what he perceived as Good. And he was not restricted in his means and methods at all. I believe he really suffered a lot when nobody really understood him. And the long chain of defeats could affect even a maia. Yet it rings true that he still understood the meaning of justice and even mercy."

Yes, I see Sauron as wanting to do good, but he will use whatever means he can to achieve his own ideas of "good." I also see him as having a streak of pettiness. That seems to be a common fault of Ainur. He holds grudges and often revenge is one of his motivations. Remember the slaying of Celerimbidor and use of his body as a standard for Sauron's troops.

"But your safety has passed. He does not need you - he has many more useful servants - but he won't forget you again. And hobbits as miserable slaves would please him far more than hobbits happy and free. There is such a thing as malice and revenge! ... It has everything to do with it. ... You do not know the real peril yet; but you shall." - Gandalf, "The Shadow of the Past," Fellowship of the Ring, p. 58

So while Sauron has a desire to be good, his very methods and personal faults lead to evil, and thus he becomes a victim of his own desires. The malicious side of Sauron was most often seen in Second Darkness in the many "Torture of Frodo" logs. Smile smiley face

"Mouth of Sauron is also exactly as I thought he was. Here, I think we have very few Tolkien writings to rely upon, either that he was cunning and crueler than any orc. But there must have been something appealing to Sauron in this guy, either than his cruelty and servility. I think you succeeded to portray him as Sauron’s most trusted servant, ALMOST his only friend, or somebody approaching a friend as closely as the Maia could ever permit."

Possibly at the beginning of their association, Sauron could see in the Mouth a human mind similar to his own. Although we are not told this, perhaps the Mouth was as eager to bring about reforms or order as his master (given the interpretation of "order" as Sauron might see it.) I do not think Sauron was looking for another cruel accomplice; there are plenty of them to be found, ie, thieves, criminals, etc. I think there must have been a meeting of minds and this is what made the Mouth what was, perhaps, Sauron's only friend, keeping in consideration as what I see as the natural aloofness of the Maia.

I also suspect that Sauron trusted the Mouth in a way - trusted him not to be too ambitious. He could, if he wanted, see to the soul of someone who was willing.

"I like you were true to Tolkien, making Mouth a mortal man. Strangely enough, often he is portrayed as a Second Age relic, somehow preserved for so long, even without a Ring. Actually, the Mouth might have been of the same age or only slightly older than Aragorn. A middle-aged man by Numenorean standards."

I have tried to analyze the Mouth from both perspectives, and finally have concluded the same as you. Perhaps, though, he held the hopes of attaining a form of immortality. We plan to explore that view in the future, ie, prolonging life with magical draughts.

"And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive...." - The Mouth of Sauron, The Black Gate Opens, Return of the King, p. 166

I do not think that is meant as an idle boast. Sauron succeeded with the Nazgûl, imperfectly, as I am sure the Mouth would consider, but it was a way.

Sauron has not come back into his full power, yet. Perhaps the Mouth is hopeful that Sauron will someday find a way to preserve him, an act of sub-creation. After all, that was a major goal of Black Numenoreans, eternal life.

"I don’t know why, but I always imagined that the Mouth should hate the Nazgul and be jealous of them. I see you had the same impression. And, of course, the fact that the Morgul Lord was allowed to rule his own city, use his own sigil and banner called for envy."

I agree. I think he would both hate them and be envious of them. They could live forever, but yet he could not. Perhaps he felt Sauron slighted him. After all, evidentially Sauron had promised him control of Isengard if all went well.

"Was Mouth right? What has happened to Angmar?"

"After that bloody battle at the Fords of Ethring, the tides began to turn in favor for the West, for the valor of the Gondorians and Riders of Rohan had won the battle and saved the day. For a time, the forces of the Enemy were loath to continue fighting, for the Gondorians proved to be dour-handed warriors who would not willingly surrender the lands that were dear to them and the Rohirrim were no less valiant a foe." - Chapter 4, "The Clouds of War"

"Great was the slaughter until at last the forces of the Enemy lost heart in the middle of that month and let Dol Amroth be for a time." - Chapter 4, "The Clouds of War"

Defeated at the Fords of Ethring and then again at Dol Amroth - how many defeats can the Morgul Lord bear before he has doubts about himself? What about this bold Rohirric maiden who dared challenge him with sword and shield? What about her companion who wielded a blade of Westernsee? He would recognize that and wonder why the "Bane of Mordor" had made another appearance. Defeats and old threats by the hand of new foes - yes, I think all these things would be more than a bit disconcerting.

"I like the reference to 'Angmar’s past record'. Indeed, he thought more of his own kingdoms than of helping his weak Master."

More of his "past record," plans and hopes will be shown in the future. Six hundred years of his own rule - that would not be forgotten.

"I totally agree with the Mouth here. I had the same impression when I read LOTR. I always wondered why the Dark Lord had not reached the same conclusion himself?"

He does in the Circles and he is not pleased at all.

"There seem only to have been five of the enemy. Why they were not all here, I don't know; but I don't think they expected to be resisted. They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They will come again another night, if we cannot escape. They are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further. I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will. We shall see!" - Strider, "Flight to the Ford," Fellowship of the Ring, p. 209-10

Why do they wait so many days? If any of them had thought to bring a bow and quiver, they could have just lain in wait and possibly shot Aragorn at long range and picked off some of the hobbits, even Frodo, as well. Why did they tarry and draw off? It does not seem logical that it would be fear of Aragorn, though he did not seem susceptible to spells or fear. Angmar does challenge Gandalf briefly at Pelennor and he would be far more formidable than a human foe. The Nazgûl are far from efficient here and are sluggish in their efforts.

Either they blundered on purpose or they blundered by accident, their lack of wisdom possibly caused by the fact the Eru and the Valar were playing them as fools.

"Peering out, Frodo saw that the night was still clear. The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of Bree-hill." - Strider, Fellowship of the Ring, p. 187

The Sickle is the Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar. This, I think, is one of those clues to the reader that all will be well for Frodo and his companions. Every west wind, every sunbeam, every twinkling star, are all omens that the Ring will be destroyed and Sauron defeated. The whole thing is a setup by Eru and the Valar, and Fellowship members are merely pawns in the designs of the Powers to get rid of a pesky Maia.

We will be going on this theory: "Indeed, he thought more of his own kingdoms than of helping his weak Master."

"Poor nazgul, 'the loving chastisement at the Hand of their Father' looms before them…"

Indeed. Smile smiley face

Sauron has plans for his own form of rebukes. "Whom the Gods wish to destroy, they first drive mad." Perhaps not totally in this case, but the future looks bleak.

Angmar

Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:20 pm

Another interesting battle chapter.

The cavalry battle goes ill for the Easterlings, as it had to be expected. Poor Tooraj! He died a hero. I also have a feeling that Kourosh will hardly survive the battle. Doungha, on the other hand, perhaps, will survive. (Aganuzir’s little prophecy). Smile smiley face

Awesome description of the battle and of Kapurdri effect on Doungha. Kourosh was not affected, but, I think, he was not permitted to drink, being a high-ranking officer. That will weaken him in hand-to-hand encounter.

The nazgul are flying yet again, though now it is perilous. Interesting personalities they are. Rut is quite a nice chap, I believe. Udu seems serious and responsible and has some good humour. Angmar is brave, sure, but I would have liked him to do something about the actual leading of the army. The army near the Gates needs to be prepared for the cavalry attack, I bet they are disorganised and frightened. What is Tahmtan doing, by the way?

Loved the nazgul song. Why does it end with "Agan" in Adunaic, not "Matum" in the Black Speech? And how do you explain that the nazgul’s spell was affecting Rohan horses but not Mordorian ones?

I thought, Angmar had lost his bow when he caught fire. Where has he got a new one?

That is really a pity that the nazgul were unable to kill at least one of the enemy lords! (At least that Imrahil. I never liked the guy.) Why so? Do you need them for further story?

And why didn’t Angmar send someone to help Udu and Zagbolg?

Loved the nazgul talk about women right in the midst of the battle. Rohirric, Dwarves, even Hobbits…Yes, nazgul must be somewhat allergic to hobbits by that time. Smile smiley face

I am afraid Rut will not have his "week in bed with the best Rohirric wenches." He will get "loving chastisement" from Sauron instead… Why didn’t Krak have any women of his own?

Thank you for including maps in your website version, they are of great help.
Smile smiley face

Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:53 pm

"The cavalry battle goes ill for the Easterlings, as it had to be expected. Poor Tooraj! He died a hero. I also have a feeling that Kourosh will hardly survive the battle. Doungha, on the other hand, perhaps, will survive. (Aganuzir’s little prophecy)."

Agan,

Perhaps, perhaps not. Smile smiley face

We will see. I will have to ask Gothmog and Krak how their bets are being placed. Gothmog will wager on anything.

"Awesome description of the battle and of Kapurdri effect on Doungha. Kourosh was not affected, but, I think, he was not permitted to drink, being a high-ranking officer. That will weaken him in hand-to-hand encounter."

No, Kourosh did not partake of the kapurdri, unlike the overall commander of the army, Tahmtan, who drank the brew forbidden to high-ranking officers.

"The nazgul are flying yet again, though now it is perilous. Interesting personalities they are. Rut is quite a nice chap, I believe. Udu seems serious and responsible and has some good humour. Angmar is brave, sure, but I would have liked him to do something about the actual leading of the army. The army near the Gates needs to be prepared for the cavalry attack, I bet they are disorganized and frightened. What is Tahmtan doing, by the way?"

Angmar will be leading battles in the far distant future, but that is another tale. No spoilers about Tahmtan. Smile smiley face

"Loved the nazgul song. Why does it end with 'Agan' in Adunaic, not 'Matum' in the Black Speech? And how do you explain that the nazgul’s spell was affecting Rohan horses but not Mordorian ones?"

This is a variation of the Death Spell, which was done entirely in Adunaic. That was one of the difficult translations I have ever undertaken. "Agan" was used because Angmar actually prefers the use of Adunaic to Black Speech. The rebel in him shows again.

The spell was only on the enemies, while a calming spell, which had been put on before, was still on the Mordorian horses. I spent endless hours pondering what logic could possibly apply to the willingness of the mumakil and Easterlings' horses during the Battle of Pelennor. Obviously, there were two different phenomena utilized here, one a spell of fear cast upon enemies and the other a spell of calming on allies. Otherwise, there is no possible logical explanation of Tolkien's rendition of the Battle of Pelennor Fields.

"I thought, Angmar had lost his bow when he caught fire. Where has he got a new one?"

He did not get a new one. The problem was a mistake in the use of numbers. I relied upon a later version of Chapter 26 when I should have stayed with the original. Therefore, I made a mistake. It has been amended.

"That is really a pity that the nazgul were unable to kill at least one of the enemy lords! (At least that Imrahil. I never liked the guy.) Why so? Do you need them for further story?"

I never liked Imrahil either. Imrahil the displaced prince, should he appear again in the Circles, will no doubt be quite disgruntled at the loss of his fiefdom. Will he find that he has to live in Dunharrow with his future son-in-law? Perhaps I should not think this way. I could see a whole sub-story set in the Circles universe about the canon characters.

The problem with killing off canon characters is that perhaps someday in the future the author might wish that he hadn't. Canon characters who seem secondary or unimportant actually have very important roles in both the canon and any story based upon it. For us to kill any of them would be a major decision.

In Second Darkness, a writer, who was rash, killed off Faramir, Legolas, Gimli, Elladan and Ellohir. That was a mistake; none of these characters needed to die. Faramir is very important as the Steward of Gondor. While Legolas seems like just a secondary character, he is the son of the Elvenking. The twins are sons of an elf lord. Gimli was an important dwarf. On the other hand, OC's are open game.

By the way, in Chapter 24, Elfhelm, who had been killed in Second Darkness, was resurrected. As a skilled military commander, he was simply a too valuable character to throw away lightly.

"And why didn’t Angmar send someone to help Udu and Zagbolg?"

Wait for the next few chapters.

"Loved the nazgul talk about women right in the midst of the battle. Rohirric, Dwarves, even Hobbits…Yes, nazgul must be somewhat allergic to hobbits by that time."

Not only the Nazgul, but the authors, have developed a very strong allergic reaction against hobbits, both because of Second Darkness and Angmar's (the author) long-time prejudice against them.

Yes, Nazgul think about the opposite sex quite often. Wherever they are - in the midst of battle, flying in the air, reading books, relaxing, expounding on some idea, spying, on a quest - their thoughts are seldom wholly upon what they set out to do. Of course, the very concept of "Nazgul romance" has earned us some of the harshest criticism of all in the past. But we never let that bother us. Smile smiley face

"I am afraid Rut will not have his 'week in bed with the best Rohirric wenches.' He will get 'loving chastisement' from Sauron instead… Why didn’t Krak have any women of his own?"

Rut should forget those ideas right now, for something else is surely in store for him. Krak does not have any women right at this time. That does not say anything about the past or future. Smile smiley face

"Thank you for including maps in your website version, they are of great help."

Glad you liked them and I hope they made what was going on clearer. I am still working on one to show the close in fighting which will be transpiring at the Deep.

Angmar

Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:27 pm

Chapter Twenty-Seven

Very interesting, indeed, all those dark memories that start to resurface in the nazgul’s minds. I wonder was it an intention of Sauron meant to punish them, or was their own control just slipping? Or perhaps Sauron himself got so distressed, that His control over them was slipping?
It is a new idea that the Numenorean nazgul had no memories of their past lives. It is fascinating. When did Sauron take their memory? Back in the Second Age? However, I believe their appearance left no doubt that they were Numenoreans. They were just so distinct from others physically, and much taller also.

The Morgul Lord started to act better, IMHO, regaining his composure. He at last gave some orders to the troops and prevented his fellows from bickering.

Thantam is plain stupid. Why had he left his banners? I think he had the opportunity to take them.

Thank you for bringing out Bashrash and Lugag again. I will never forget how they ate a turtle in SD!

I think it sounds true that Aragorn would hive Easterling men quarter. But I have more problems with the parley. Somehow I feel that they would not treat with Mordor, convinced as they were that the Enemy would cheat them anyway. The Parley at Morannon in LOTR was just a show, I believe, to give Frodo time, not done in earnest. So I was much surprised to see this truce sought by the West.

Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:31 pm

“Very interesting, indeed, all those dark memories that start to resurface in the nazgul’s minds. I wonder was it an intention of Sauron meant to punish them, or was their own control just slipping? Or perhaps Sauron himself got so distressed, that His control over them was slipping?”

Sauron is very distressed about many things. Smile smiley face

That will be revealed in later chapters.

“It is a new idea that the Numenorean nazgul had no memories of their past lives. It is fascinating. When did Sauron take their memory? Back in the Second Age?”

In this AU, He took it from the three Numenoreans in the Second Age. Khamûl always kept a great portion of his memory, and the other Five retained a degree of theirs. It would seem pointless to fill their minds with too many memories because they might be inclined to dwell upon them and not do their jobs as they should be doing them.

“However, I believe their appearance left no doubt that they were Numenoreans. They were just so distinct from others physically, and much taller also.”

Yes, they can tell that the others are Numenorean, but what exactly their connection is at this time is hidden by Sauron.

“The Morgul Lord started to act better, IMHO, regaining his composure. He at last gave some orders to the troops and prevented his fellows from bickering.”

He has not been having a good day. Smile smiley face

“Thantam is plain stupid. Why had he left his banners? I think he had the opportunity to take them.”

He did have the opportunity to take them, but the enemies could see him retreating from the field. Being the coward that he is, he decided to try to sneak off the field, but other eyes are always watching.

“Thank you for bringing out Bashrash and Lugag again. I will never forget how they ate a turtle in SD!”

The turtle eating was one of my favorite things. The meat of land turtles often is poisonous, depending somewhat on the last thing they ate. Orcs must have stomachs made of cast iron. Smile smiley face

I always missed Bashrash and Lugag in the Circles, and now I believe I have done them their dues. Good lads, both of them.

“I think it sounds true that Aragorn would hive Easterling men quarter. But I have more problems with the parley. Somehow I feel that they would not treat with Mordor, convinced as they were that the Enemy would cheat them anyway. The Parley at Morannon in LOTR was just a show, I believe, to give Frodo time, not done in earnest. So I was much surprised to see this truce sought by the West.”

In this AU, I try to do things with a little more realism. I think in this situation, since there have been a great number of women and children taken, that he will make an attempt to get them back. I felt I needed to state this anyway for the readers because this public rejection of the offer will play a part in future developments in the story. I used as a model the exchange system used during the American Civil War. At first, both sides would have agreements to exchange prisoners with so many privates equaling a lieutenant, etc. As the war progressed, it was felt by General Grant, Union Army Commander, that every Rebel that was released was just one more man to add to the fighting force. I do not think he liked making this decision, but he wanted to shorten the end of the war by whatever means.

Glad you enjoyed the chapter.

Angmar

Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:33 am

Chapter 28.
A fascinating chapter !
At last there is a chapter entirely focussed on the Morgul Lord! And I can say, I like how you portray him very much. I liked how he started to talk to Thamtan, deceptively friendly and ended with proposing him a duel. That made imminent sense that he didn’t bother to rave at the Maugoth, to call him names or something. There was no need, as Angmar already decided to take his life. So he just played like a cat with a mouse, perhaps for his own amusement, perhaps more for the other spectators. At least that is how I understood it.

And it looked like Angmar has offered Maugoth a choice. One alternative was a Morgul knife. Then he would have become like nazgul, only weaker, he would have had an invisible body and his fea, inhabiting it for all eternity.
(By the way I liked the reference to "the crew as merry as ours"! Perhaps he was not entirely joking…)

But what was the other choice, the one that he has finally "chosen"?
It looks, he was killed, the body destroyed. But he was not permitted to go to Mandos. Thamtan was left with only a houseless fea, bound to the ME, and specifically to Angmar. He became a spirit, not a wraith. Perhaps he would have a possibility to inhabit other bodies, or animate skeletons, like the Barrow-wights? Did I get it right?
Liked the Black Speech chant, intoned softly as a welcoming bidding.

Then there is another theme: Angmar and Sauron.

It looks like with the Ruling Ring on Sauron’s finger and Angmar’s own returned back to him, the two were able to communicate at a distance directly, not like during the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, when messengers were needed.

"My little King"…Grr.. Not at all nice to be called that. As well as "My most loyal thrall".

It is really disturbing to read how Sauron felt at home in nazgul’s minds. Their fate is surely not to be envied. I readily believe they were tortured when he was displeased. There must have been a reason for their fear of the fire. I agree that he may have threatened them with destroying their rings. But he is hardly likely to do it, is he? If one nazgul is gone irretrievably, the Nine will never be complete, and that weakens the whole Ring-scheme.

Sauron is not too political, refusing the exchange of prisoners. Why was he so stubborn? Just didn’t want to loose face, or he wanted those women and children too much?

Angmar had a good idea to use the truce to save his battered army. Strange Aragorn has not thought of it.

thank you for the excellent chapter,

Agan

Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:53 pm

"At last there is a chapter entirely focused on the Morgul Lord! And I can say, I like how you portray him very much. I liked how he started to talk to Thamtan, deceptively friendly and ended with proposing him a duel. That made imminent sense that he didn’t bother to rave at the Maugoth, to call him names or something. There was no need, as Angmar already decided to take his life. So he just played like a cat with a mouse, perhaps for his own amusement, perhaps more for the other spectators. At least that is how I understood it."

You understood correctly. Nothing would be gained to go over his list of offenses. They were plain enough, and so he died. Smile smiley face

"And it looked like Angmar has offered Maugoth a choice. One alternative was a Morgul knife. Then he would have become like nazgul, only weaker, he would have had an invisible body and his fea, inhabiting it for all eternity."

Actually, the Morgul Lord never offered him a choice. He was showing Tahmtan what he was going to miss. The Morgul Lord considered it a far worse fate to be a disembodied fea than to be a weaker wraith who has at least a body. In the Circles, these wraith servants are of higher rank than the numerous wandering, weaker ghosts.

"(By the way I liked the reference to "the crew as merry as ours"! Perhaps he was not entirely joking…)"

Actually, he was not. There are some who enjoy their ill-gotten life and live it to the fullest with no regrets.

"But what was the other choice, the one that he has finally "chosen"?
It looks, he was killed, the body destroyed. But he was not permitted to go to Mandos. Thamtan was left with only a houseless fea, bound to the ME, and specifically to Angmar. He became a spirit, not a wraith. Perhaps he would have a possibility to inhabit other bodies, or animate skeletons, like the Barrow-wights? Did I get it right?
Liked the Black Speech chant, intoned softly as a welcoming bidding."

Yes, you get it exactly. Tahmtan is like a barrow wight but not that powerful. Perhaps as his spirit grew older, he would gain in power, but that is theoretical.

"It looks like with the Ruling Ring on Sauron’s finger and Angmar’s own returned back to him, the two were able to communicate at a distance directly, not like during the "Hunt for the Ring" in UT, when messengers were needed."

This is based on how the Elves knew instantly of Sauron's designs when He put on the One Ring and intoned the inscription. All Nine had had their Rings return, so they were participating in thought-speech over a distance.

"'My little King'…Grr.. Not at all nice to be called that. As well as 'My most loyal thrall'."

There are certain insults that are more painful than others. Those were two of them, and there are more.

"It is really disturbing to read how Sauron felt at home in nazgul’s minds. Their fate is surely not to be envied. I readily believe they were tortured when he was displeased. There must have been a reason for their fear of the fire. I agree that he may have threatened them with destroying their rings. But he is hardly likely to do it, is he? If one nazgul is gone irretrievably, the Nine will never be complete, and that weakens the whole Ring-scheme."

Of course Sauron will not throw any of their Rings in the fire. That is all just a bluff. Over time, they realized that, but it is still a powerful threat.

"Sauron is not too political, refusing the exchange of prisoners. Why was he so stubborn? Just didn’t want to loose face, or he wanted those women and children too much?"

He did not want to lose face before the West and show weakness. He was rather distraught that day and even maiar make mistakes.

"Angmar had a good idea to use the truce to save his battered army. Strange Aragorn has not thought of it."

Sooner or later, one side or the other must either yield or retreat.

Thank you for reading and thank you for your comments. Both mean a lot to Elfhild and me.

Angmar

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