Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"

Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:26 pm

Angmar and Elfhild,

The new chapters are awesome, truly beautiful language and imagery. I liked that you used Old English for these ancient stories. Interesting retelling of the Silmarillion, from the point of view of the Dark side. But not contrary to Tolkien, as he recognised himself, that stagnation was intrinsic in the works of the Valar, and later the Elves. Though, the Spring at Almaren was so beautiful!

I believe you are very finely keeping the balance of good and bad in Sauron. Once he was creative and wanted to improve the World. Now, after 7000 years of defeats, he is very tired, hysterical and very cruel to those around him. Considering that Sauron has been embodied much longer than the wizards, he may have started to grow old mentally.

But still he is a god, not a man. You succeeded to show it, not to make him too human. Turighwethil is awesome and believable. Difficult not to pity her. I loved the portrayal of the two magic creatures. And the illusions on the walls were cleverly introduced, making the readers recall how the Dark side has fought for ages, fought through a long defeat.

The story even takes us to Angband of old, showing Sauron returning to his Master Morgoth after a major defeat, much like Angmar will return to Sauron very soon. Sauron got no pity from his Master, though he tried to put part of his blame on the poor bat. Angmar at least fought valliantly, not running away like Gorthaur. What will happen to him?

Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:00 pm

NOTE: Elfhild wrote the below. -Angmar

"The new chapters are awesome, truly beautiful language and imagery. I liked that you used Old English for these ancient stories. Interesting retelling of the Silmarillion, from the point of view of the Dark side. But not contrary to Tolkien, as he recognised himself, that stagnation was intrinsic in the works of the Valar, and later the Elves. Though, the Spring at Almaren was so beautiful!"

Agan,

Thank you for your comments on these chapters.

Yes, even the Valar would fade and grow more impotent as time passed by. Only Eru was immune from aging, and, perhaps, the Ainur who remained with him.

The creation of Arda in the Silmarillion is very vague, with many years clumped together in a few paragraphs. We do not even know when Sauron becomes the servant of Melkor, why he was displeased with Aulë, or even his real name.

We do know from what is in the Ainlindalë that Melkor also laboring upon Arda at the same time that Manwë, Aulë and Ulmo were working. He declared that Arda would be his kingdom, and so Manwe called other spirits to aid him and stay Melkor's workings. Melkor "withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he could" (apparently still on Arda) but when he saw the progress that the Valar were making, he took shape and challenging their labors. From there, we get the war of creation in which Melkor raises up a mountain and the Valar cast it down, and the Valar make a valley but Melkor raises it up into a mountain.

The war ended when Tulkas came, and Melkor retreated into the void. The Valar order things, clean up, and set up the Two Lamps. There is the great feast, which Melkor knows about, for he has spies among the Maiar (probably Sauron, the pre-balrogs, as well as many others). During the feast, Melkor sneaks back to Arda and hides in Utumno, taking with him "spirits out of the halls of Eä that he perverted to his service."

These could be wandering spirits, either in Arda or the Void, or perhaps some of the spies from Almaren itself. However, not too many who are close to the Valar, for if the maiar started leaving the island and its surrounding area like rats fleeing from a sinking ship, the Valar would be bound to notice.

Then when Melkor makes his first assault, probably many, if not all, of the maiar who are in his service flee from Almaren. After all, the world is about to be almost destroyed, and most would be convinced of Melkor's success in the war. There would be quite an underground network of spies and agents, recruiters (who better to rally up support for Melkor than Sauron the Seducer?), and a hotbed of political unrest just underneath the noses of the Valar.

This is the theory that we came up with, based upon the Silmarillion. It actually would make a very interesting novel in itself...

"I believe you are very finely keeping the balance of good and bad in Sauron. Once he was creative and wanted to improve the World. Now, after 7000 years of defeats, he is very tired, hysterical and very cruel to those around him. Considering that Sauron has been embodied much longer than the wizards, he may have started to grow old mentally."

Yes, that would tend to make one feel very defeated and discouraged. Tolkien said that Sauron was becoming more like Saruman, and we all know how petty Saruman was.

"But still he is a god, not a man. You succeeded to show it, not to make him too human. Turighwethil is awesome and believable. Difficult not to pity her. I loved the portrayal of the two magic creatures. And the illusions on the walls were cleverly introduced, making the readers recall how the Dark side has fought for ages, fought through a long defeat."

Thank you. Smile smiley face

It was slightly difficult to capture the feeling of a wind spirit, for they are harder to portray than temperamental fire spirits (Sauron, balrogs), simple earth spirits (Yavanna, Radagast; Tom Bombadil, if one subscribes to the theory he is an earth maia), or water spirits (Ulmo, Ossë, mermaids). We have Manwë, who is very noble, and the helper eagles. So wind spirits would probably either be quite noble, or quite petty. And so we have Thuringwethil.

The illusions on the walls concept were Angmar's idea.

"The story even takes us to Angband of old, showing Sauron returning to his Master Morgoth after a major defeat, much like Angmar will return to Sauron very soon. Sauron got no pity from his Master, though he tried to put part of his blame on the poor bat. Angmar at least fought valiantly, not running away like Gorthaur. What will happen to him?"

Sauron probably learned many of his best tortures and punishments from his Master, for they were inflicted upon him...

I imagine that there would be some interesting arguments between Melkor and Sauron. After all, their philosophies are very different from each other. Melkor always wanted to destroy and create anew; Sauron loved Middle-earth and wanted the worship of everyone.

"Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it." - Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring, 396

Sauron was drawn to Melkor because of his power and way of expediting his will. Yet perhaps as time went by and Melkor became more bitter, Sauron worried for the sake of the lands which he loved, though he could do nothing against Melkor's plans. As the Valar and elves stay in Middle-earth, they become more and more attached to the world. The same would be true with Sauron.

This chapter offers a rather innovative explanation of what happened to Thuringwethil, and why Sauron dwelt for a time in Taur-nu-Fuin. We thought it fit into canon rather well, and was an interesting "gap-filler."

As for Angmar? You shall just have to wait and see. Smile smiley face

Again thank you for your kind words.

Elfhild

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:48 pm

Chapter 35, the long-awaited!

Very beautiful new chapter, Angmar and Elfhild!

One sees immediately the work you have done on the the choice of words and the text in general, for it to run so smoothly, like a dance.

I liked the part "Taste My blood and drink of My power" it makes the love-scene rather unusual and creepy.

I wondered reading the scene, was she much smaller than Sauron (in size)? Smile smiley face

So, we have two female spirits - a wind spirit and a Fire spirit

Elfhild wrote: "It was slightly difficult to capture the feeling of a wind spirit, for they are harder to portray than temperamental fire spirits (Sauron, balrogs)...So wind spirits would probably either be quite noble, or quite petty. And so we have Thuringwethil".

I agree with you, Elfhild, the Wind spirit must be really harder to portray. I see it now. The other one, Nariamara, seems gorgeous, but not an overly complicated creature. (And what a gorgeous picture on your website!).

As for pettiness of the wind spirits, I believe the same wind spirit would sway from greatness to pettiness and back. It happened even to Manwe. Yes, Thuringwethil is a very unhappy bat, but quite likeable, somehow.

On what terms is she with the nazgul, I wonder? Smile smiley face

And thank you, Elfhild, for replying at length to my previous comments. Indeed the theory that you came up with, based upon the Silmarillion, is quite realistic and compatible with Canon. It really would make a very interesting novel in itself...

"The illusions on the walls concept were Angmar's idea."
Congratulations, Angmar!

"This chapter offers a rather innovative explanation of what happened to Thuringwethil, and why Sauron dwelt for a time in Taur-nu-Fuin. We thought it fit into canon rather well, and was an interesting gap-filler"

Yes a great gap-filler indeed. Tol-in-Ghauroth story in Silmarillion is a dark one with many omissions. You offered an excellent story, explaining the known facts realistically.
One understands that Sauron was NOT disembodied, however he disappeared somewhere nonetheless, and didn't help his master to deal with Luthien.

By the way, have a look at this cartoon by Allor, depicting how the Silmarils were really obtained from Morgoth. Twisted Evil smiley face

http://allor.ramot.ru/humorpicts_5.htm

Best wishes,

Agan

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:10 pm

Agan,

Good things are worth waiting for. Smile smiley face

This chapter took several months of writing and rewriting before we felt it was ready for public viewing.

"One sees immediately the work you have done on the the choice of words and the text in general, for it to run so smoothly, like a dance."

We were striving for this chapter to flow, as you say, like a dance.

"I liked the part 'Taste My blood and drink of My power' it makes the love-scene rather unusual and creepy."

ELFHILD: By giving her his blood, Sauron was strengthening Thuringwethil for the act of their union. By taking hers, he was absorbing some of her powers to himself. This concept is more fully outlined in Morgoth's Ring.

"I wondered reading the scene, was she much smaller than Sauron (in size)?"

ELFHILD: Yes, Thuringwethil is lesser than Sauron in all ways, in size, height and power.

"I agree with you, Elfhild, the Wind spirit must be really harder to portray. I see it now. The other one, Nariamara, seems gorgeous, but not an overly complicated creature. (And what a gorgeous picture on your website!)."

ELFHILD: You are correct, Nároméra is not a complicated spirit. Her emotions are more fiery and volatile than Thuringwethil's. The bat is more melancholy and flighty.
The picture on the Circles site is of Lilith. The red hair and arrogant expression just seemed to fit.

"As for pettiness of the wind spirits, I believe the same wind spirit would sway from greatness to pettiness and back. It happened even to Manwe. Yes, Thuringwethil is a very unhappy bat, but quite likeable, somehow."

ELFHILD: She is quite a wretched creature, and for many reasons. To go lofty position of messenger to terrifying peasants in the East is quite a drop. Sauron is not faithful to anyone and has a streak of sadism that only grew with the years.

"On what terms is she with the nazgul, I wonder?"

ELFHILD: We see her as being resentful and jealous of them. After all, she was once messenger, and who are these nine young spirits, little more than mortals? But still, we think she is probably drawn to all Nine of them, handsome undead men of royal bloodlines. Nároméra, of course, would have her appeal to the Nazgul... sort of a fatal attraction almost. Smile smiley face

When she gets heated up, though, she can be rather lethal with a fiery whip. Smile smiley face

"And thank you, Elfhild, for replying at length to my previous comments. Indeed the theory that you came up with, based upon the Silmarillion, is quite realistic and compatible with Canon. It really would make a very interesting novel in itself..."

ELFHILD: I thought that as I was writing it... Smile smiley face

My mind swims with the tale of Arda, going all the way back to when Eru created the Ainur... I also see some rather humorous tales of the maiar who followed Melkor, on the line of the Tale of Tol Sirion... Smile smiley face

Ah, the misadventures of Thuringwethil, Sauron, Naromera, and others...

ANGMAR: I have thought that these chapters with Sauron, Thuringwethil and Nároméra could almost be a short story on its own, with some modifications, of course. Something tells me that they will be back. Smile smiley face

"Congratulations, Angmar!"

ANGMAR: Thank you! The jewels on the wall are based on pictures of real opals. I never thought of Sauron's quarters particularly as some weird, frightening place, but more a practical place, a fortress, a forge for making military equipment, not a “house of horror.” Tolkien drew the outside of Barad-dur more as though it were a factory.

This is my favorite drawing of Barad-dur, which is similar to Tolkien's rendition:

http://www.tlotr.com/fan_art/baraddur_stephenwalsh.jpg

From all the smokestacks, would seem apparent that Sauron is using the fortress as a place to make weaponry. Who knows, maybe he is refining oil and generating electricity. He is a maia of the earth and would be able to utilize these fuels for his own use.

"Yes a great gap-filler indeed. Tol-in-Ghauroth story in Silmarillion is a dark one with many omissions. You offered an excellent story, explaining the known facts realistically.
One understands that Sauron was NOT disembodied, however he disappeared somewhere nonetheless, and didn't help his master to deal with Luthien."

ELFHILD: No, Sauron seems strangely absent at a lot of important events. It seems that he did little during the Silmarillion, except play evil pranks on Gorlim and guard Tol Sirion. The balrogs led the armies, not Sauron. Just what did Sauron do? Either he was doing things in secret, or he was doing things openly but Tolkien never wrote about them. Perhaps Melkor did not have confidence in his military abilities and thus never placed him in positions of great power which required a competent leader. Smile smiley face

From reading and studying, it seems that Sauron and Melkor did not have the close friendship that many people depict them as having.

"By the way, have a look at this cartoon by Allor, depicting how the Silmarils were really obtained from Morgoth."

ELFHILD: Now we know the truth of things. Smile smiley face

Luthien was not so pure after all. Smile smiley face

ANGMAR: At least Melkor knew a little sweetness before he felt the bitterness of losing the Silmaril. Smile smiley face

We both admire Allor’s work greatly.

Thanks for reading, and for the comments. That is what keeps us writing.

Angmar and Elfhild

Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:27 pm

Chapter 36, Those Doomed to Die

Angmar,

I loved your chapter!

Krak and Zag are funny, the humour a bit earthy, but they are Easterlings, not sophisticated Numenoreans, so I think it is appropriate.

And Udu and Rut are awesome. Udu's attitude is very Tolkienesque, so to say.

I hope Udu's apprehensions will not come true, that would be a great loss!

Thanks for the recipe of Dushurz-Gabhik, " wormwood, honey, charnel flowers, distilled water from the Morgulduin" Smile smiley face

The EMBLEM of the Nazgul flying Corpse has appeared. Hurrah! The very one that was Tolkien’s own, but never used. Great, that you made it an esoteric symbol.

"once again be consulting the entrails of goats, cattle and birds to
determine ..."

That was very interesting part of the back-story. Seems all the Numenorean nazgul at least tried simple sorcery and divination, Was that during their natural lives?

"You are worse now than the King was after that wench challenged him!"

Also a nice part of back story info.

"I lost confidence long ago in all except the King and you! I know how
Gothmog and Skri have wavered."

So, I guess it refers to how Sauron got the rings from the nazgul around 2950? Am I right to guess, that Goth and Skri were captives in Dol Guldur and lost their Rings earlier than the others, and later helped Sauron to get into Mordor? Or did you have other ideas?

"How do you... know? Once the power existed to slay us all, and in

truth, who can say that the knowledge cannot be learned once again? It was once..."

Refers to the Barrow downs blades, I guess.

But what about the canon story of the Nine seeing the accursed blades in hobbit's hands (or at least in Frodo's hand) at Weathertop (the blade burned like flaming branch in the spirit world)? And the King seeing the same type of blade in Merry's hands at Pelennor?

"He does not watch all the time. His attention is drawn to other
things."

This I like very much. Few realize that even Sauron is unable to watch all the time, and, most likely, the Nine feel his gaze, when directed at them. So when he is not looking, they start to act... according to their own wishes.

Liked the way Rut apologized to Udu for binding him to the beast. A very nice touch, speaks a lot about them.

It is great how many wineskins Udu managed to take with him. Enjoyed this part a lot.

Thank you for explaining "haruspices", I didn’t know what it meant.

The song is wonderful. One of the best bawdy songs I ever read. Where did you get the inspiration?

Poor Elves on the field hearing that bawdy song coming from the sky! They would have been offended, Shocked smiley face

if they could make out the words.

Thank you for the chapter, Angmar. A pleasure to read.

Agan

Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:12 pm

Agan,

"Krak and Zag are funny, the humour a bit earthy, but they are Easterlings, not sophisticated Numenoreans, so I think it is appropriate."

Krak might not be an Easterling, a Southron or a Northerner. The ancestors of the men of Erech and that vicinity are always overlooked. Smile smiley face

"And Udu and Rut are awesome. Udu's attitude is very Tolkienesque, so to say. I hope Udu's apprehensions will not come true, that would be a great loss!"

Characters are often wrong in their perceptions, so we cannot always believe that what they say will be what happens in the story. Actually Udu's "premonitions" are based on situations that really have happened in history. I know from many years of reading about the Civil War that some man or men in a company would always have "a premonition" that they were going to die in that battle. They would become emotional and tell their comrades about sending their personal effects back to friends or relatives. Sometimes their premonitions were correct; sometimes not. I am quite sure that throughout history, there have been many men like this who were convinced they were going to die but lived.

"The EMBLEM of the Nazgul flying Corpse has appeared. Hurrah! The very one that was Tolkien’s own, but never used. Great, that you made it an esoteric symbol."

Oh, yes, it is like a talisman to them. When the emblem is severely damaged, Udu is convinced he is doomed.

"That was very interesting part of the back-story. Seems all the Numenorean nazgul at least tried simple sorcery and divination, Was that during their natural lives?"

This would be during Udu's natural life, when he was still seeking hidden mysteries and very much drawn to the arcane. That is not to say he was ever the best at it, though. I feel certain he would have had many failures.

"So, I guess it refers to how Sauron got the rings from the nazgul around 2950? Am I right to guess, that Goth and Skri were captives in Dol Guldur and lost their Rings earlier than the others, and later helped Sauron to get into Mordor? Or did you have other ideas?"

That will be in one of the chapters I am most worried about. I am having so much difficulty with these dates that are given in the book. I even have looked up old versions of the Tale of Years in HOME, hoping they will bring some more insight. HOME makes it even more confusing, however. The Silmarillion does not correspond with LOTR, either. I have a homemade timeline and I study it constantly, trying to reconcicle one date and event with another. It is very difficult in certain places.

"Refers to the Barrow downs blades, I guess."

Yes. I think Angmar, knowing his close association with the wights, has a good idea of what else might be buried in those barrows.

"But what about the canon story of the Nine seeing the accursed blades in hobbit's hands (or at least in Frodo's hand) at Weathertop (the blade burned like flaming branch in the spirit world)? And the King seeing the same type of blade in Merry's hands at Pelennor?"

The Nazgul know about the blades. That information bothers them, too. They fear what would happen if the art would be resurrected and more enchanted blades would be forged.

"This I like very much. Few realize that even Sauron is unable to watch all the time, and, most likely, the Nine feel his gaze, when directed at them. So when he is not looking, they start to act... according to their own wishes."

The Nine here have their Rings and Sauron would have more access to their thoughts. However, Sauron is not looking at the two drunken Nazgul. He is upset about the defeat at this moment.

"Liked the way Rut apologized to Udu for binding him to the beast. A very nice touch, speaks a lot about them. It is great how many wineskins Udu managed to take with him. Enjoyed this part a lot."

Udu did not want to be sober. He was too upset at what he considered a dire portent about his emblem and wanted to forget things asmuch as he could (he never can really, but it does not hurt to try). I enjoyed writing this chapter. Glad you liked it.

"Thank you for explaining "haruspices", I didn’t know what it meant."

Haruspex (plural haruspices) is a Roman word referring to those priests who examined entrails of dead beasts to tell the future. While it is not used in any of Tolkien's books, I liked it because it described so well these practitioners of augury. Here is a good link which even shows the chart using a bronze sheep's liver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex

"The song is wonderful. One of the best bawdy songs I ever read. Where did you get the inspiration? Poor Elves on the field hearing that bawdy song coming from the sky! They would have been offended, if they could make out the words."

The body song was original with me. These ideas just came to me, and I wrote them down. The battle was pretty much over by then. Perhaps they attributed it to some atmospheric disturbance. Udu is not a good singer.

"Thank you for the chapter, Angmar. A pleasure to read."

Thank you, Agan. There probably won't be another update until after Christmas or New Years. Elfhild and I are busy working on the third book, which is set in Nurn.

Angmar

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:00 pm

Chapter 37

Delightful insight into the animosity of the fellow nazgul, Krith and Skri.

Krith is definitely not an endearing person, but he is delightfully venomous. I loved this sentence: "Should you offer me a draught of blood from the skull of a slain enemy, which had lined in gold and crafted for a cup, I would decline it!" Very descriptive!

We learn that Krith was not a member of the "clever group who fancies themselves so close to the King". No wonder here, strange that Skri belonged to it - I thought it comprised only the Numenoreans. Is it because of Skri's sharp wit and humor? Or simply because he was "fawning upon the Captain instead of our rightful Master"?

But I had difficulties to understand the following jibe:
"Tell your feelings to Khamûl." Skri knew that Krith would take this as an insult, a taunt. The Eighth felt justified. "I am sure he would understand. You two are so... close."
Why was Krith offended? Didn't he choose to spend 2000 years in Khamul's and Zagbolg's company?

Very funny way to use the Fell Beast to intimidate an opponent. The nazgul indeed act like fellow pilots in an Air Corps would. As a side note: it seems that taking wineskins on a flight was common practice among nazgul, not only Udu's little weakness.

Interesting story of the ancient rivalry of Skri and Krith. The story, how Sauron corrupted those two Easterlings is quite believable. Indeed,the two rivals must have provided Sauron with lots of fun. I agree that Sauron at this time possibly could change shapes, at least could inhabit dead bodies for some time.

I was wondering about this "Golden Lord" ("Then there arose to the east of them across the mountains a mighty people not of their race, whose overlord was vicious and savage.") Did he also become one of the Nine?

I agree of your interpretation of nazgul actions in the Second Age - when they were ultimately controlled by Sauron, but "held with a not-too-tight rein". And indeed in the Third Age, finally free, they must have followed their own wishes, very probably each moved closer to his own people. At least, I believe, the Witch-King chose to settle close to the Dunedain not because he hated them, but because they were the only people he wished to rule, all the others being inferior.

And I think you are quite right here:
"None of the others had been able to come to his aid, though some had wished. The power of Dol Guldur was far too great for their forces to face, and Sauron had blocked all the passes into Eriador."
No help has come to Angmar from the East, very probably, because Sauron feared the Witch-King's growing strength. In TA 1974 he was in one step from becoming the Third Age's Dark Lord, supplanting Sauron.

Thank you for the interesting chapter,
Agan

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:58 pm

Agan,

"We learn that Krith was not a member of the "clever group who fancies themselves so close to the King". No wonder here, strange that Skri belonged to it - I thought it comprised only the Numenoreans. Is it because of Skri's sharp wit and humor? Or simply because he was "fawning upon the Captain instead of our rightful Master"?"

Skri's humor holds him in good stead, but there are other reasons...

"But I had difficulties to understand the following jibe:
"Tell your feelings to Khamûl." Skri knew that Krith would take this as an insult, a taunt. The Eighth felt justified. "I am sure he would understand. You two are so... close."
Why was Krith offended? Didn't he choose to spend 2000 years in Khamul's and Zagbolg's company?"

There are complex political intrigues that will not be shown until later in the story. When this is revealed, you will understand the jibe. Smile smiley face

"Very funny way to use the Fell Beast to intimidate an opponent. The nazgul indeed act like fellow pilots in an Air Corps would. As a side note: it seems that taking wineskins on a flight was common practice among nazgul, not only Udu's little weakness."

There will be more Nazgul "flying circus" air stunts in the future. Smile smiley face

"Interesting story of the ancient rivalry of Skri and Krith. The story, how Sauron corrupted those two Easterlings is quite believable. Indeed,the two rivals must have provided Sauron with lots of fun. I agree that Sauron at this time possibly could change shapes, at least could inhabit dead bodies for some time."

The two would provide much mirth for Sauron. I always saw Sauron in this period as being able to be a powerful necromancer and shapeshifter, too. Elfhild says that my portrayal of Sauron reminds her a bit of Loki, the trickster god in Norse mythology. Come to think of it, she is right. Smile smiley face

Sauron, though, is not as wild as Loki in shapeshifting. Loki could become female, give birth and go back to being male. Of course, that would have made an excellent disguise. Smile smiley face

"I was wondering about this "Golden Lord" ("Then there arose to the east of them across the mountains a mighty people not of their race, whose overlord was vicious and savage.") Did he also become one of the Nine?"

No, he did not. The "Golden Lord's" identity might not be revealed for many, many chapters, and then it might be a surprise.

"I agree of your interpretation of nazgul actions in the Second Age - when they were ultimately controlled by Sauron, but "held with a not-too-tight rein". And indeed in the Third Age, finally free, they must have followed their own wishes, very probably each moved closer to his own people. At least, I believe, the Witch-King chose to settle close to the Dunedain not because he hated them, but because they were the only people he wished to rule, all the others being inferior."

I can agree entirely with you here. The bloodlines were Numenorean and basically the Gondorians were his kindred. It is only logical that he would want to rule those who were worthy.

"No help has come to Angmar from the East, very probably, because Sauron feared the Witch-King's growing strength. In TA 1974 he was in one step from becoming the Third Age's Dark Lord, supplanting Sauron."

When Sauron was at his weakest, there was that potential for Angmar to be the new Dark Lord.

Angmar

Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:31 pm

Angmar,
Thank you for the interesting new chapter (Thirty-Eight)

This chapter reminds me strongly of Italian Renaissance literature, like "Decameron". The tales of nazgul adventures and misadventures in Gondor are hilarious. They really "did all in their power to ensure fertility" in depopulating Gondor! Very Happy smiley face

The question of nazgul fertility is difficult.
By the way, I have recently found this quote from Morgoth's Ring: "Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring)."
But, I know, it is inconclusive. Nice that you left the question open.

Interesting how different nazgul personalities prove to be in love affairs. Angmar always keeps aloof, not much romantically involved with his women, and not even interested in his possible bastards. Udu falls in love sometimes, but then loses interest (and the women herself becomes a stake in a game). And Skri is faithful even beyond death.

In the pale tower of Minas Morgul (which was not unlike Bablon of the East) the nazgul were "drinking and feasting throughout the idle days and nights, serenaded by troubadours and surrounded by servants and sycophants, lovers and mistresses".

Interesting where all these sycophants come from? Harad, or Nurn? And where all the food and wine come from? The problem of Minas Morgul is that it lies all alone at the very border of the enemy territory. Behind the city is a difficult pass to the barren plain of Gorgoroth, and there is still a long way to the fertile plains of Nurn (provided that the Nazgul in Minas Morgul ruled Nurn). The road South, to Harad, that goes along Anduin, passes through Gondor territory. So bringing provisions for a large population seems quite difficult.

Perhaps, considering all this, there might be something in your idea of a secret pact between the Morgul Lord and the Stewards. There was indeed a long peace, until the times of Denethor I and Boromir I. I think it was more like an unwritten tacit agreement, though. Simply the few people and soldiers who remained in Ithilien learned from bitter experience that those who venture past a certain particular place in the vale never return. So the boundaries became well known to all, though unmarked. However, since 2475, there was never real peace. Probably, by this time, the Stewards have forgotten the treaty, or, alternatively, the orcs in Mordor became more numerous and needed more hunting grounds in Ithilien. Maybe, the nazgul learned that Sauron returned to Dol Guldur in 2460 and started breeding black uruks to increase the army they kept in Mordor.

I see you suggest that the growth of the pale flowers in the Morgul Vale was caused by spells made with the help of the Nine Rings. The Morgul Vale was somehow alike to Lorien, though twisted. Lorien was made by Nenya, Galadriel's ring, while the unusual atmosphere of the Morgul Vale might have been caused by the Nine. I always took it as a proof that the nazgul kept their rings throughout most of the Third Age.

Best wishes,

Agan

Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:51 pm

"This chapter reminds me strongly of Italian Renaissance literature, like "Decameron". The tales of nazgul adventures and misadventures in Gondor are hilarious. They really "did all in their power to ensure fertility" in depopulating Gondor!"

The boys aren't talking. Smile smiley face

"The question of nazgul fertility is difficult.
By the way, I have recently found this quote from Morgoth's Ring: "Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring)."
But, I know, it is inconclusive. Nice that you left the question open."

To me, the concept of evil is relative. The interpretation all depends upon who is writing. If we were to do a Lost Tales fiction or base our story upon the Lost Tales canon, then Melkor is married to a spirit named Ubandi and they have children. I prefer the Lost Tales story really. Writers could really go somewhere with these stories. I wish there were more fiction written from these secondary sources.

If evil is barren, then how were Ungoliant and Shelob able to reproduce? Then there are the orcs. They seem to be able to reproduce. I do not think of them as evil either, but rather physicial representations of concepts.

"Interesting how different nazgul personalities prove to be in love affairs. Angmar always keeps aloof, not much romantically involved with his women, and not even interested in his possible bastards. Udu falls in love sometimes, but then loses interest (and the women herself becomes a stake in a game). And Skri is faithful even beyond death."

Angmar guards his heart and his thoughts. Udu, younger, is a romantic, as is Rut to a certain degree. Skri is a mournful, steadfast lover, always faithful, grieving always, for her and for many lost things.

"Interesting where all these sycophants come from? Harad, or Nurn? And where all the food and wine come from? The problem of Minas Morgul is that it lies all alone at the very border of the enemy territory. Behind the city is a difficult pass to the barren plain of Gorgoroth, and there is still a long way to the fertile plains of Nurn (provided that the Nazgul in Minas Morgul ruled Nurn). The road South, to Harad, that goes along Anduin, passes through Gondor territory. So bringing provisions for a large population seems quite difficult."

We know that by the time of LOTR that Nurn is feeding Sauron's armies. Tolkien told us virtually nothing about Nurn other than it is a food producer at the time of LOTR. Here is about all we do know:

“But as these ranges approached one another, being indeed but parts of one great wall about the mournful plains of Lithlad and of Gorgoroth, and the bitter inland sea of Núrnen amidmost, they swung out long arms northward; and between these arms there was a deep defile." - The Black Gate is Closed, TTT, 244

“Things move in the far East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported; and north in Mirkwood and beyond; and south in Harad.” - Beregond, “Minas Tirith,” Return of the King, p. 38

“Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Muontain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges, and the musterings of long-planned war; and here the Dark Power, moving its armies like pieces on the board, was gathering them together.” - ROTK, 201

Nurn is actually pretty much of an afterthought to explain how Sauron's armies were being fed. A lot of things in Tolkien's writing do not make much sense when you study them, but it is fiction.

At this time in the story, Sauron has declared himself openly in Mordor for about seventy years. What the Nurnians were doing before that is unknown. Therefore, since this is AU, we explore possibilities. We are dealing with a 1000-year period in the history of Middle-earth about which little is written.

The people of Minas Morgul would be a mixture of rebels and dissidents from Gondor and Arnor; displaced Angmarians; Haradrim, Nurnians; Khandrim; Rhûnians; Umbarians; about anyone who is not a faithful Gondorian or a stalwart Northman.

In The Circles, we can approach the feeding of a living military force through a possible Nazgul overlordship of Nurn, or a simple matter of their purchasing food from Nurn. Whatever, the Nazgul control the pass. Either way, I see food as not that much a problem. Transportation, however, would take quite a while. There could be terraced gardens. That is not impossible - look at Peru. The MERP maps of Gorgoroth have streams running through the Mountains of Shadow, even small lakes.

Considering the factors that Mount Doom was mostly dormant from the end of the Second Age until the year 2954 of the Third Age, the Mountains of Shadow are a relatively low range which allow rain and wind from the West, and the soil of a volcanic plain is very fertile, perhaps the barren plain of Gorgoroth was not so barren. If the mountain is not actively smoking and the land gets rain, why would it be a barren wasteland? Even grass grew around the Thangorodrim when those three volcanos were ACTIVE.

There is even evidence in an early map that Tolkien drew that a river runs out of the Ash Mountains and passes in front of the site of Barad-dur. Elfhild and I are going to go with the Nargil Pass to Harad in this AU. We might move it, though.

Apparently, the Gondorians were too cautious even to launch an exploritory military force in all those years. The forts to guard Mordor were basically abandoned after the Great Plague hit in 1640. Maybe the native Nurnians (people of whom we know next to nothing) or even people who lived in a relatively fertile Gorgoroth defeated the already withered Gondorian guard posts. If there had been any Gondorian colonization attempts, these people would free after 1600 years.

If the Nazgul controlled Mordor from 2000 TA, they would be controlling Gorgoroth and possibly have an influence also upon Nurn. Sauron's deserted realm would be pretty safe for them.

More theories coming in the next update. Not sure when that is, though.

Angmar

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