Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"

Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:48 pm

Chapter 39

It is a very interesting chapter, especially for me. I was wondering, how exactly you will "flesh" some of the vague ideas we share. And you did it quite well. Not the way I would have written it myself (I would have had some of the nazgul loose their Rings to the Necromancer at a much earlier date, before the Fall of Angmar). But your way works as well, of course.

"The one who held the Ring of greatest power - he who would become known in later years as the Witch-king of Angmar - eventually made his way to the north of Eriador."

Here we have no canonic evidence, but I am not sure that the Witch-King had the strongest Ring. I feel the 9 rings might well be of equal power, but "each ring gives power according to the measure of its possessor". The WK was the strongest of the Nine initially, so, with their respective power multiplied, the gap between him and the others increased even more. It is just my opinion, of course, and it is not meant as a criticism.

I always wondered what did the WK do after the fall of Barad Dur and before he came to Angmar. Perhaps he has been in Umbar? Gondor conquered Umbar in 933 and Harad in 1050. Perhaps that caused the WK to transfer his base North?

So very true about Earnur. Really, why didn't they even tried to offer ransom? No, Mardil the Good Steward didn't want his King back!

I loved the part about Skri. Quote poignant and creepy.

What is a water organ? I am curious. Does it really exist?

I liked your idea of the wells in the fortress and stocks of provisions. Strange, though they didn't have an escape tunnel somewhere.

I liked the parley. Great dialogue. Also liked the way Sauron used the three captured nazgul in the parley.

Who made the plague? Or was it natural? This: "Now he dares steal My plans and My designs! He has purloined the Great Plague from Me!" is invaluable. Very Happy smiley face

.

Very good ending: "And thus was the fellowship that had lasted almost a thousand years sundered forever."

Thank you for the chapter.

Agan

Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:06 pm

Agan,

"It is a very interesting chapter, especially for me. I was wondering, how exactly you will "flesh" some of the vague ideas we share. And you did it quite well. Not the way I would have written it myself (I would have had some of the nazgul loose their Rings to the Necromancer at a much earlier date, before the Fall of Angmar). But your way works as well, of course."

Thank you for looking over this chapter. I had been concerned about its controversial nature. As far as I know, these ideas have never been expressed in print, so these are new concepts with nothing to use as a precident.

"Here we have no canonic evidence, but I am not sure that the Witch-King had the strongest Ring. I feel the 9 rings might well be of equal power, but "each ring gives power according to the measure of its possessor". The WK was the strongest of the Nine initially, so, with their respective power multiplied, the gap between him and the others increased even more. It is just my opinion, of course, and it is not meant as a criticism."

The major theories about the Nine Rings - 1. That Sauron gave the Witch-king the greatest Ring of Power and all others were equal; 2. That Sauron gave the Witch-king and Khamul the two most powerful rings and the other rings are equal; 3. That the Rings were made in descending order, with 1 being the most powerful and 9 the least powerful; 4. That the Rings were equal in power, but reflected the inate power and ability of the bearer - can all fit in with the canon.

In The Circles, it is stated many times that Sauron hand-picked the Witch-king of Angmar to be the leader of the Nazgul. It is implied that Sauron studied the Nazgul, else why would he pick one over the other to be the leader if he did not know a lot about them? This plot device seems to favor the "Witch-king's ring is the most powerful" theory. Of course, it can always favor the other theory - "The Rings reflect the bearer's abilities." However, in the Circles, it is standard "canon" to say that Angmar's Ring was the most powerful.

Then, too, on another angle, I don't think that the other eight would exactly be willing, since they had been kings and powerful men, to allow themselves to be ruled by another unless it was by force, especially when Eastern kings must submit to a Numenorean. That would sting. That would be justification for the leader's ring to be the most powerful - to force them to follow and control them. Eight against one would be difficult odds to beat, even if Angmar did have a powerful personality.

"I always wondered what did the WK do after the fall of Barad Dur and before he came to Angmar. Perhaps he has been in Umbar? Gondor conquered Umbar in 933 and Harad in 1050. Perhaps that caused the WK to transfer his base North?"

This is certainly a good possibility, for where else could he find people who would possibly be more attuned to him?

"So very true about Earnur. Really, why didn't they even tried to offer ransom? No, Mardil the Good Steward didn't want his King back!"

The "Good Steward" might have been called that by the people, who did not want the king back, either. Smile smiley face

Imagine what would happen if someone kidnapped President Bush? Or Queen Elizabeth? Everyone would think this act was a delcaration of war. Enemies just do not kidnap rulers of countries without paying a price. The hew and cry would be tremendous to bring them back by military force or by ransom, which was a very common way of getting back lords and nobles during the middle ages. Richard the Lion-hearted is the record-holder for having the highest ransom paid for him - twenty-two or twenty-three million dollars. Prince John came up with the money, but obviously Mardil did not want to pay to get him back.

"I loved the part about Skri. Quote poignant and creepy."

Skri is one of my favorites. He seems to be a man of terrible regrets and grief.

"What is a water organ? I am curious. Does it really exist?"

A water organ is the ancient form of pipe organ. Here are two good sources on the water organ. The second is more informative than the first and has some good illustrations.

http://themusicpage.org/articles/pipeorgans.htm
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/april05/features/organic/organic.html

"Who made the plague? Or was it natural? This: "Now he dares steal My plans and My designs! He has purloined the Great Plague from Me!" is invaluable. Hee-hee."

The plague was natural, but each one blamed the other for causing it.

Thanks for reading.

Angmar

Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:05 am

Chapter 40.

Great chapter, Angmar.

I loved your tale of the fate of the three traitors... Sauron is far from being a loving father, and perhaps they have miscalculated turning back to him.

I especially liked how you made Zag reach for Khamul's hand for comfort, when they waited for the final blow, it was so touching and made me feel sorry for them, even if they proved to be base-hearted villains. Great touch, Angmar.

Liked your description of the battle and destruction in Minas Morgul. Faramir's words in LOTR always puzzled me "shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls" Why would the walls of Minas Morgul be ruined? Surely, in about a thousand years, the nazgul had time to repair the fortress after the siege of 2002. And they did reconstruct it, adding the rotating section to the Tower. and the "grinning gates". So, it seems Minas Morgul had been ruined again, rather recently, for Faramir to know about it. The battle for the nine rings might be a good explanation for that.

Interesting plot development to make Angmar try to send his women and children to safety, but fail. Hmm, the next chapter shapes up as really horrible...*shivers*.

Awesome battle of spells and lightning. Angmar is weaker, of course, but still he tries...Sauron is "cautious" as ever, sending his minions to die for him until Angmar's power is spent.

Great touch to give the dying Angmar these visions of Numenor : Meneltarma with eagles, the sea, the pastures of Emerië. I hope there will be more to come!

Very well written dialogue: Angmar is defiant to the very end. " The face of Mandos is far fairer than Thine" Twisted Evil smiley face

Thank you for the chapter.

Agan

Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:48 pm

"I loved your tale of the fate of the three traitors... Sauron is far from being a loving father, and perhaps they have miscalculated turning back to him."

The Lord of the Flame can be quite petty at times.

"I especially liked how you made Zag reach for Khamul's hand for comfort, when they waited for the final blow, it was so touching and made me feel sorry for them, even if they proved to be base-hearted villains. Great touch, Angmar."

These three outcasts are cup companions and they have built up a bond of camaradrie over the years, and sometimes even these scoundrels show it.

"Liked your description of the battle and destruction in Minas Morgul. Faramir's words in LOTR always puzzled me "shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls" Why would the walls of Minas Morgul be ruined? Surely, in about a thousand years, the nazgul had time to repair the fortress after the siege of 2002. And they did reconstruct it, adding the rotating section to the Tower. and the "grinning gates". So, it seems Minas Morgul had been ruined again, rather recently, for Faramir to know about it. The battle for the nine rings might be a good explanation for that."

Faramir probably was referring to the destruction caused after the siege in 2000. After all, few of his generation and those of the previous generations had ever been in the Mountains of Shadow. When Frodo, Sam and Golumn passed by Minas Morgul, the walls of the city seemed to be intact and in good condition.

But if Faramir was referring to more recent damage, the battle of the nine rings would probably explain the visible signs of ruin.

"Interesting plot development to make Angmar try to send his women and children to safety, but fail. Hmm, the next chapter shapes up as really horrible...*shivers*."

No, really the next chapter will deal with reconstruction and Angmar's plans of defense.

"Awesome battle of spells and lightning. Angmar is weaker, of course, but still he tries...Sauron is "cautious" as ever, sending his minions to die for him until Angmar's power is spent."

Never expect Sauron actually to do anything if he can have someone else do it for him. Only when his back is in a corner and he can't escape will he retaliate.

"Great touch to give the dying Angmar these visions of Numenor : Meneltarma with eagles, the sea, the pastures of Emerië. I hope there will be more to come!"

These chapters are far in the future.

"Very well written dialogue: Angmar is defiant to the very end. " The face of Mandos is far fairer than Thine" "

Thanks, Agan. There are many more adventures ahead.

Angmar

Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:29 am

Chapter 41.

To begin with, I am glad that you skipped the gruesome description of Sauron's punishment for Minas Morgul population and the nazgul themselves. On one hand, it is perhaps ever more frightening, as you left it to the reader's own imagination. On the other hand, it will permit the punishment of the nazgul after the Second battle of the Helm's Deep not to be a repetition.

Angmar's perseverance is admirable. After being tortured and nearly killed himself, after seeing all he had been attached to perish, after having lost his Ring and his very freedom, he still has the will to live and to continue on!

The three nazgul, the traitors, were sent to Dol Guldur - an independent place, while the rebels were kept in Morgul under surveillance. It makes perfect sense. It also explains a curious thing: why six nazgul (the "mightiest of Sauron's servants") sat together in M. Morgul and were not used as independent commanders e.g. in Nurnen, at the Morannon, at Durthang at Barad Dur etc. It seems Sauron had not much faith in them.

"presences could be sensed, dim, lurking, rapacious maws for the unknowing, and no man made his way there." Were they the unquiet fëar of those killed in the last assault? Or also the wraiths and ghosts who lived there already before?
And what about wraiths - morgul knife products, who abode in Morgul before the siege? Were they also punished?

"The glorious statues that once stood in the gardens and around the fountains had been twisted and warped into graven foul shapes that were both fantastic and loathsome."

Hmm, the statues on the bridge that Frodo and Sam saw were twisted and loathsome, but they were there while M. Morgul was ruled by the nazgul. I always thought that the statues, as well as the pale flowers and the poisoned water of Morgulduin were sort of defensive measures against the intruders.

"We know well, Eighth, your fondness for Námo." "We have much in common," the other laughed dryly."
As I remember Namo from the Silm, I can't see why Skri has much in common with him. Probably his dark moods? Or you base your picture of Mandos on Tolkien's earlier writings?

"It is kismet, fate," Gothmog murmured, "and there is naught that we can do to prevail against it."
Where did you get this word, "kismet"? And what was Gothmog's nationality?

"a new road curving through the mountains all the way to northern Nurn"
Will this new road branch from the one going by Cirith Ungol, or will it take an entirely different route through the Mountains?

The fountains in Angmar's sketches... Aren't most of the nazgul afraid of water? Or Morgulduin water was somehow "disinfected" of Ulmo's influence?

And then we are back to the present, to the Second Battle of Helm's deep. So the next chapter - the nazgul meet with Sauron?

I liked the chapter very much. Thank you for posting,

Agan

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:47 pm

Agan,

"To begin with, I am glad that you skipped the gruesome description of Sauron's punishment for Minas Morgul population and the nazgul themselves. On one hand, it is perhaps ever more frightening, as you left it to the reader's own imagination. On the other hand, it will permit the punishment of the nazgul after the Second battle of the Helm's Deep not to be a repetition."

I had never planned to include the description of Sauron's punishment for the surviving population of Minas Morgul. Most of the soldiers had been slain in grim ways already. The fate of the wives was already threatened and I thought that would be best left up to the readers' imaginations. I found that readers' imaginations are far better than my own powers of descriptions.

And, yes, the punishment after Helm's Deep would only be a repetition of the prior punishment.

"Angmar's perseverance is admirable. After being tortured and nearly killed himself, after seeing all he had been attached to perish, after having lost his Ring and his very freedom, he still has the will to live and to continue on!"

He still has a germ of life left within him, or perhaps it is nothing more than foolish hope. Whatever the case, he does not feel that "life has totally stretched him out to the point where he wants to give it up. Perhaps his near extinction experience was enough to teach him that.

"The three nazgul, the traitors, were sent to Dol Guldur - an independent place, while the rebels were kept in Morgul under surveillance. It makes perfect sense. It also explains a curious thing: why six nazgul (the "mightiest of Sauron's servants") sat together in M. Morgul and were not used as independent commanders e.g. in Nurnen, at the Morannon, at Durthang at Barad Dur etc. It seems Sauron had not much faith in them."

Keeping them close to the Tower should guarantee their loyalty. The three who have shown themselves eager to follow Sauron's way and thus earn his favor are rewarded with their own city.

"Were they the unquiet fëar of those killed in the last assault? Or also the wraiths and ghosts who lived there already before?
And what about wraiths - morgul knife products, who abode in Morgul before the siege? Were they also punished?"

There was a large population of unquiet fëar present, and there were additions in the last assault. It is impossible to do more than just guess at how many the Morgul knife products would be around. I do not see them as getting any specific punishment other than feeling lost without their masters.

"Hmm, the statues on the bridge that Frodo and Sam saw were twisted and loathsome, but they were there while M. Morgul was ruled by the nazgul. I always thought that the statues, as well as the pale flowers and the poisoned water of Morgulduin were sort of defensive measures against the intruders."

These statues were not the same as those at the bridge. These were the personal objects de art the Nazgul had in their private gardens. Sauron tainted these statues and turned them into hideous monstrosities. Before they had been quite lovely... and rather unclad.

"As I remember Namo from the Silm, I can't see why Skri has much in common with him. Probably his dark moods? Or you base your picture of Mandos on Tolkien's earlier writings?"

Skri has a morbid sense of humor. He does not want to see Mandos any more than the rest of them do. There is something about the image of a god of the dead in black robes and who says blackly humorous things that appeals to him. He is something of an individual. Smile smiley face

He would have the same attitude if instead of Namo it was the ferryman across the River Styx.

"Where did you get this word, "kismet"? And what was Gothmog's nationality?"

For this story, Gothmog is from Harad.

"Kismet" has been in my vocabulary for as long as I can remember, dating back to childhood. I cannot possibly remember where I first heard the word, but it is as common to me as are such words as "bread," "dog," etc.

"Kismet" is a word of Turkish origin. According to this site - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kismet - kismet, 1834, from Turk. qismet, from Ar. qismah, qismat "portion, lot, fate," from root of qasama "he divided."

Here is something that might be of interest regarding another use of the word Nazgûl. In Black Speech, the word means "Ring Wraith," but in Eastern languages, it means something far different. I rather like this version of "Nazgûl." Smile smiley face

"The passion for garden flowers became evident everywhere, on clothing, furnishings and in architectural decoration, and extending even to the names of the harem women, who began to be given melodious Persian names like Laligül (Ruby Rose) and Nazgül (Shy Rose) that suggested they were as beautiful and graceful as flowers." - Secret Garden: Topkapi Palace Harem - http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/harem.html

This site, by the way, has some beautiful examples of Turkish architecture.

"Will this new road branch from the one going by Cirith Ungol, or will it take an entirely different route through the Mountains?"

No, this road goes south towards Nurn through the Mountains of Shadow.

"The fountains in Angmar's sketches... Aren't most of the nazgul afraid of water? Or Morgulduin water was somehow "disinfected" of Ulmo's influence?"

I do not think Angmar is frightened of small bodies of water, or even larger ones. Fountains would not bother them, nor would baths or pools. That is "controlled" water. Think how Angmar controls the weather, and there is a lot of snow and ice there.

I always thought the fear of water was overblown. After all, Angmar was willing to ride across the Bruien Ford. Chris Tolkien noted that his father did not explain how they crossed the dangerous ford over the Grayflood to get to the Shire, but they had to cross it some way. If they are that afraid of water, a rainstorm would turn them into wailing misery.

"And then we are back to the present, to the Second Battle of Helm's deep. So the next chapter - the nazgul meet with Sauron?"

No, the next chapter is one I am dreading because it is a transition chapter. They are always very slow and difficult to write, but they are necessary, something like a post script to tell what has happened to the other characters in the story, such as Daungha and Kourosh, at least one of which will be a minor character in Book 3.

Angmar

Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:40 am

Complete! and now on to Book Two!

I don't often read AU, but this has me enthralled. Wink smiley face

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:02 pm

Congratulations, Angmar and Elfhild, for finishing the first book of the Circles! Smile smiley face

I liked the last two chapters, the punishment dealt to those who failed.

Poor philosopher Kourosh...I liked his last conversation with Doungha - about Gods. Faithful Doungha, who was denied the same fate, should remember and learn to hate the Dark Lord.

Great scenes in the Gondorean hospital - I especially liked how the chief surgeon acknowledged that that was the beginning of slavery in Gondor, even it the captives' condition were disguised in fair words.

Aragorn still sounded a bit naive hoping for a truce and exchange of prisoners with Mordor.

And the chastisement of the nazgul... "The silence in the Dark Tower" is awesome. There is no crueler torture than the total mind-control. Humiliation...Having that possibility via his Ring, it is understandable that Sauron had no real need of physical torture.

But what about nazgul women and dependants? Were they killed yet again?

Great work, all the first book is wonderful and beautifully written. Now back to the girls! Smile smiley face

Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:11 pm

Sulriel,

Thanks for reading. Book Two will be another "What if?" exploring the wastes of war ravished Gondor. The scenario might be considered similar to Italy after the fall of Rome and the barbarian invasion.

Angmar

Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:21 pm

Agan,

"I liked the last two chapters, the punishment dealt to those who failed. Poor philosopher Kourosh...I liked his last conversation with Doungha - about Gods. Faithful Doungha, who was denied the same fate, should remember and learn to hate the Dark Lord."

War does strange things to men, and I think it is safe to say that Daungha has been traumatized by his experiences. He might be a little odd after that. Smile smiley face

"Great scenes in the Gondorean hospital - I especially liked how the chief surgeon acknowledged that that was the beginning of slavery in Gondor, even it the captives' condition were disguised in fair words."

Elfhild is working on the prologue of Book Two, which will go into the early days when the Rohirrim moved south. The indiginous people will not be pleased with their new neighbors.

"Aragorn still sounded a bit naive hoping for a truce and exchange of prisoners with Mordor."

There might be some surprises way down the road with Aragorn, but no hints.

"And the chastisement of the nazgul... "The silence in the Dark Tower" is awesome. There is no crueler torture than the total mind-control. Humiliation...Having that possibility via his Ring, it is understandable that Sauron had no real need of physical torture."

With mental torture, the victim is never quite sure what his tormentor will do, and the unknown is probably the worst form of torture.

"But what about nazgul women and dependants? Were they killed yet again?"

During that seventy year period after the return of the Master, most were hesitant to wade in the turbulent waters of love.

"Great work, all the first book is wonderful and beautifully written. Now back to the girls!"

Their fate is worse, I think, than any could predict.

Angmar

Login

Navigation

RSS Feeds

Reviews for "The Circles: Book One: The Triumph of The Shadow"