[Annie103]

At the end of lotr Frodo, sam, gimli and bilbo all go to valinor (I think), none of these are immortal. So if they live in Valinor would they live forever (Valinor is also known as the undying lands) or would they just age normally? Or would they just live a little longer than usual?
hmm....

[Beruthiel]

As far as I have always understood it, they just live out their natural lifespan. Ans I do not think they went to Valinor itself, but to Tol Eressea, an island off the coast od Valinor that housed a lot of the elves that never went back to Middle Earth. Maybe one of the silmarillion experts (BittenBuggy????) can tell you more???

Beruthiel

[Annie103]

They might not have gone to Valinor, been a while since I read the books, but still interesting to find out.

[Moralanqua]

Beruthial is right. They all died and they never made it to Valinor as a land mass, it was only Tol Eressea.

[Annie103]

[BittenBuggy]

Uh... guys, where is it supported in the text that they only got as far as Tol Eressea?

In the Silmarillion it only says:

"And latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready. In the twilight of autumn it sailed out of Mithlond, until the seas of the Bent World fell away beneath it, and the winds of the roand sky troubled it no more, and borne upon the high airs above the mists of the world it passed into the Ancient West, and an end was come for the Eldar of story and of song."

And I know in the Appendix it doesnt say anything...

If either of you can find a quote, I'd really appriciate it!

[Viv]

Snerched from Tinni's fantabulous site Canon? NO! Its Fanon:

"And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'” - Akallabêth, Silmarillion

and

“I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world." (Tolkien, Letter 154)

So, even if they go West, they still die. Implication is that their deaths were similar to Elros's and Aragorn's deaths: voluntary and on their own terms, though perhaps not so long in coming.

[Andreth]

Yay, I get to pull out my all-time favorite book, Letters, and make another long, drawn-out, yet educational post.

That they only went to Eressea might be mentioned someplace else that I'm forgetting, but the only one I can think of is here in Letters where the professor is discussing Galadriel's farewell song in Lorien -

Letter #297 (pg 386) "At the time of her lament in Lorien she believed this to be perennial, as long as Earth endured. Hence she concluces her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) soujourn in Eressea, the Solitary Isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed."

- - - - But this is the only place Tolkien specifically mentions Eressea alone. I don't think it's ever delineated whether or not he had to remain on the Lonely Isle or if he was allowed to go into Valinor. Tolkien just says 'Aman' and then designates Aman to be the Isle of Eressea and then Valinor itself. Some people think the mortals in Aman never went beyond Eressea and others think they also went into Valinor itself. Here are the other quotes concerning Frodo/Bilbo's trip to Aman and their fate there:

Letter # 154 (pg 198) "But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward; a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' - of free will, and leave the world."

- - - - - -(Anna's note - what Tolkien's talking about here - dying of 'free will' - is something he talks about in Unfinished Tales, the footnotes to the chapter The Line of Elros. He says that when Elros made his choice his body didn't change, it was still the same as Elrond's - what changed was that Elros was given the gift of having his spirit become weary of the world and then would choose to willingly give up life. Like how Aragorn died - willingly walking down to the tombs, laying down and dying. So basically those Mortals in Aman would have eventually wearied of the world and willingly lay down and died.)

Letter #246 - Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, *before he died*. He would have enventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the Hobbit's childhood onward. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. But Bilbo also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He still bore the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness."

Letter # 325 (pg 410) - "The 'immortals' who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman - the undying lands of Valinor and Eressea, an island assigned to the Eldar - set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West toward the ancient site of these lands. They only set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from that shore had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down, but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight: it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth's surface. As it vanished it left the physical world. There was no return. The Elves who took this road and those few 'mortals' who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the 'History of the world', and could play no further part in it.

The angelic immortals (incarate only at their own will), the Valar or regents under God, and others of the same order but less power and majesty (such as Olorin=Gandalf) needed no transport, unless they for a time remained incarnate, and they could, if allowed or commanded, return.

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing, and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

This general idea lies behind the events in The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically 'true'; except that some special physical catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion over the world. But the legends are mainly of 'Mannish' origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth."


- - - - So basically the Mortals in Aman could live for as long as they wanted, until their spirits wearied of the world, then they could choose to lay down and die. They wouldn't die of old age or time, only when time had wearied their spirits enough that they were ready to leave the world.

I think a lot of people also overlook the last line of the letter above, saying the 'Sindar and others who had never left Middle-earth', which to me indicates that some Elves didn't go West and some remained in Middle-earth somewhere. Hmmm.....


Anna

[Anna]

[Viv]

[inglor]

Re: mortals in Valinor, I seem to remember that Tuor was somehow granted entrance, is my recolection right?

Inglor

[Andreth]

Thanks, Anna. (I feel so schizo when I chat with you. ) But it's just from reading this stuff for a few decades now. It's all gotten lodged in my head and, other than using it in discussions with my brother and his geek friends, it was pretty much useless knowledge until I discovered the internet! So now I'm happy to share info just so I won't feel like the time I've spent reading this stuff hasn't been a total waste.

Anyway, as your question, yes, there is something about mortals dying in Valinor. I think it's in the Book of Lost Tales somewhere, or maybe The Lost Road. It talks about mortal mariners who get lost and somehow end up in Valinor and how just before they died they got a glimpse of the Undying Lands. So probably the Valar did something for those who were invited so they wouldn't be affected this way. Or maybe that didn't come into play at all because it was in one of Tolkien's earlier story incarnations that he talked about lost mariners dying like this and when he changed it to the whole flat earth/round earth idea, completely removing Aman from the physical world, then this idea didn't count anymore.

I was just one my way out to run some errands, but when I get home this evening I'll see if I can't track down the exact quote for you.

Anna

[BittenBuggy]

Oh good lord, everybody brace yourselves, Anna's on a roll....

[Anna]

Sorry Viv! My bad!

Yes, I know what you mean, Anna. It´s slightly confusing sometimes.

[Annie103]

hmm.... Andreth, you're not a reincarnation of Tolkein are you?