[Feadan]

I just joined so I can offer my perspective on this topic.

I have been the owner of the Henneth Annûn Yahoo list since last September, when the demands of Una's doctoral thesis made it impossible for her to continue operating the list she founded. My goal is the same as hers; to provide a venue where Tolkien fan fiction writers of all types can find support, fellowship and constructive criticism to improve themselves as writers.

If anyone feels they have been mistreated, or a clique is making it difficult for them to participate, or have any other problem with the list, write me at mgkellner@charter.net . I will address your concerns as best I can.

I don't know how to address charges of cliquisness, since it is a matter of perception. Mine is; if you participate in conversations in a civil manner, you will be accepted into the group. We get about 20 new members a week. It seems to me, though I have never kept any record, that only one new member actually begins posting a week, and that may be a high estimate. It is really hard to be accepted into the group if no one knows you are there. Any new member who does pop up and says "hi", will always draw a welcoming response from Una or I. We may miss a few, but we try not to. Beyond that, I don't know what I can do.

A lot of the ire I see in this string has it's origins in exactly two incidents. I just checked. In the last year, we have gotten 20,724 posts. That is an average of 58/day. In all of that posting there have been a few unhappy moments. I think it a bit unfair to measure us by those events and hold them up as the norm. I do not preview what people post, or even intervene unless they are beyond the pale of civilized behavior.

The incident where there was a call for flaming an author: This was someone who was exasperated with yet another Thranduil the abusive father fic. In looking over the threads, the string quickly devolved into a discussion of Mary Sues in general, and a debate over the meaning of "gaudete". In retrospect, I should have stepped in, but I was preoccupied with other matters at the time and was not following the thread. In the end, the founder of HASA, Anglachel, joined the thread to berate those who were calling for the mass flaming of this author. After that, people apologized for their bad behavior and knocked it off. I have not seen a similar thread since. The next time this happens, I will move quickly to stop it. I want HA to be a place where young writers can learn to improve themselves, and this type of behavior is inconsistent with that goal. I don't know what else I can say. I apologized at the time, and I do so again.

The other incident, is a personal matter between two people who do not get along. Hopefully, they will both continue to avoid public displays of their mutual dislike, while continuing to be members of the Tolkien on line community.

I do not get where we or HASA are described as obsessed with canon. Our members, including those active on the forums, write many things which are not strict canon. There is a low tolerance for anachronisms, and bad writing, but I have seen very few strings complaining about canon. We discuss what is and isn't canon, and people post a lot of lore helping others who are interested in getting this or that point right, but there is no Fundamentalist Jihad going on. What I see is an attitude of write what you are moved to write.

Anyway, I have tried to address the complaints against HA. I am always willing to listen to complaints or grievances. Please let me know where I am wrong. If you are not comfortable doing so in public, write me. I will give your concerns a fair hearing.

FWIW: I do not speak for HASA. It has its own management who have made their own input to this thread. Please write them if you have a complaint. I know many of the HASA administrators, and I am sure they will give your claims due consideration as well.

Mike Kellner

[Scribe]

[quote="Feadan"]I just joined so I can offer my perspective on this topic.

I have been the owner of the Henneth Annûn Yahoo list since last September, when the demands of Una's doctoral thesis made it impossible for her to continue operating the list she founded. My goal is the same as hers; to provide a venue where Tolkien fan fiction writers of all types can find support, fellowship and constructive criticism to improve themselves as writers.

FIrst off, congratulations on your take over of HASA Yahoo list. I haven't been there for awhile so I wasn't aware of this.

If anyone feels they have been mistreated, or a clique is making it difficult for them to participate, or have any other problem with the list, write me at mgkellner@charter.net . I will address your concerns as best I can.


I don't know how to address charges of cliquisness, since it is a matter of perception. Mine is; if you participate in conversations in a civil manner, you will be accepted into the group. We get about 20 new members a week. It seems to me, though I have never kept any record, that only one new member actually begins posting a week, and that may be a high estimate. It is really hard to be accepted into the group if no one knows you are there. Any new member who does pop up and says "hi", will always draw a welcoming response from Una or I. We may miss a few, but we try not to. Beyond that, I don't know what I can do.

By the opinions of those in this list, it appears that much has changed on the HASA archive so our views about it being elitist or anything maybe out of date. I always felt a bit intimidated there and even more so because I've had several rejections from HASA with no explanation. It always bothered me a bit as my stories were placed under that kind of scrutiny thanks to some overzealous fans. I permitted the recommendations because of HASA reputation and getting rejected several times upset me to the point I decided I didn't want the fics that had passed muster to remain. Perhaps I'm a little bias but my bias does not change the fact hat HASA is still a very good fan fic archive, even if I don't agree with its policies.


The incident where there was a call for flaming an author: This was someone who was exasperated with yet another Thranduil the abusive father fic. In looking over the threads, the string quickly devolved into a discussion of Mary Sues in general, and a debate over the meaning of "gaudete". In retrospect, I should have stepped in, but I was preoccupied with other matters at the time and was not following the thread. In the end, the founder of HASA, Anglachel, joined the thread to berate those who were calling for the mass flaming of this author. After that, people apologized for their bad behavior and knocked it off. I have not seen a similar thread since. The next time this happens, I will move quickly to stop it. I want HA to be a place where young writers can learn to improve themselves, and this type of behavior is inconsistent with that goal. I don't know what else I can say. I apologized at the time, and I do so again.

Fair enough because it was this episode that drove me from HASA for good. My annoyance came from the fact that it got as far as it did and that clear warnings should have been to those responsible. Also the fact that it took one person to finally say STOP before a number of supposedly sensible people discovered what they were doing. If things have improved since, I might actually go back . I have a policy on this site that is the same as yours, authors are to be encouraged. The fourteen year old who writes a horrendous MS fic may not post it here but I will give her access to the forum and communication with those who can help her improve. If this is HASA's policy now, great. I'm all for it. Not enough people do that.


I do not get where we or HASA are described as obsessed with canon. Our members, including those active on the forums, write many things which are not strict canon. There is a low tolerance for anachronisms, and bad writing, but I have seen very few strings complaining about canon. We discuss what is and isn't canon, and people post a lot of lore helping others who are interested in getting this or that point right, but there is no Fundamentalist Jihad going on. What I see is an attitude of write what you are moved to write.

Its difficult to explain why the opinion has been formed. Maybe I personally felt slighted because I've seen stories on HASA I don't think were any better or worse than those of mine that were rejected and since I was given no explanation, assumed that there was some ulterior motive for its rejection. Perhaps other people feel the same way. However, as you and so many others have said, the review process has gone through changes and is more communicable. So once again, it all comes down to perspective and bad press from past experiences.


Anyway, I have tried to address the complaints against HA. I am always willing to listen to complaints or grievances. Please let me know where I am wrong. If you are not comfortable doing so in public, write me. I will give your concerns a fair hearing.

Thank you for your words, it was good of you to let the debate hear your side of things.

While you do not speak for HASA, I do speak for OSA and I can tell you now, that there is always room for multiple fan fic archives and the people who run in on the fandom. We are after all a part of the same community and while idealogy and opinions may differ, it should be a community of mutual respect.

Members of HASA will always be welcome here.

[dolarabee]

[dolarabee]

[fileg]

For myself, I was just responding to the fact that when someone asked a straightforward question ( What is a HASA COmpetition) the VERY FIRST response was not to answer what those competitions were , but that HASA was snobby and "Very high class, dahling."

I find that to be an uncalled for response, and darkly amusing that we were being called elitist in the same breath as we were being lumped into a stereotype.

I will admit - I should not have taken that remark (even combined with those that followed) as policy here. It was an opinion. Anyone care to extrend the same courtesy to those of us who were labeled snobs because someone expressed "opinions" at HASA?

[Isabeau]

[Ariel]

[Isabeau]

[dolarabee]

[dolarabee]

[Gaslight]

[Gaslight]

Ariel said:
LOL! Oh, don't worry. You don't want to know how many times I get that quizzical look that says 'het hobbits'? like the concept has never occurred to them.

Ariel
(doomed to be read by few)



Considering I'm not that big a fan of smut -- I know, what am I doing here, you may ask -- there are some fics here that I just don't feel the urge to click on. But, considering the sad amount of non-smut/non-slash archives out there, I may have to force myself to acquire a taste for it. And from the forum here I have heard about your fics where I would not have normally. Sooo....I'll give them a look and try to be open minded! I'm always willing to give stuff a go and you can be sure that I'll leave considerate feedback. Who knows...maybe my mind can bend around the concept of rutting hobbits. I do like well-done angst...

If it's any consolation, I've gotten precious few reviews here as well and pretty much rely on ff.net. I stick my stuff out there in some places, but ff.net's had the best response rate. The quality there can be knocked with good reason, but the sheer audience volume there is a big plus. Luckily enough, I haven't had more than a handful of those unhelpful "It was great, write more!" types. I know I'm guilty of not reviewing every single fic I read and it's something that I'm trying to remedy as time allows. Sometimes the amount of fics is overwhelming, whether you read for awards or pleasure.

[Ariel]

Yes, Isabeau – I would have thought that to….LOL.

Well, Do, I don’t have any specifically Merry angst, but I’m working on a Faramir piece you might like.

Thank you, Gaslight.

When I first started posting my stories I was pretty bummed about the lack of feedback I got. Sure, I have never been flamed, and I am always talking to people who read my pieces a long time ago and just put two and two together to realize I wrote a fic they really liked (a truly WONDERFUL feeling), but I really thought (and still think sometimes) that my stuff just wasn’t very good. I just couldn’t understand why no one ever reviewed my things. Coming to the realization that it’s more because I write in more unpopular genres and in a way that is different than most of what you find in them, helped a lot. Not saying I am not still extremely critical of my own works, but understanding that it is subject, not so much content has helped a lot.

That said, I have many pieces of G and PG rated angst that are completely smut free. May I suggest, if you haven’t read it, my most highly praised piece “The Gift of Iluvatar” http://www.openscrolls.net/fanfic/story.php?no=69 – archived here at OS. It has well respected characterizations of all the major characters, including my hobbits, and you may enjoy it.

Is there anything of yours that you could recommend for me? I tend to lean towards unheralded fics – ever the champion of underdogs me – and I would be delighted to find another good author to follow.

Ariel

[Isabeau]

And thank you for clearing that matter up. When I saw your fic on the list of nominees, I did email the Mithrils to ask why it was being included, considering it was an in progress fic and, as far as I was concerned, the plot had not been drawn to a satisfying conclusion by Chapter 19.


No, it was really more of a break-point, as I said. Had it been in the serial category, I think that would have been more appropriate. In truth, I don't think there will be a satisfying conclusion in Chapter 52--it will probably feel like another break point.

The response I got said that (and I'm paraphrasing), because of popular demand by voters, it was being included. So, from all outward appearances, it seemed that if someone had a big enough fanbase, the rules did not apply! I don't think you can fault me from drawing that conclusion based on what I was told. But I am glad that you have clarified it. Still, in all fairness to others, I believe that it should not have been included at all and in my original email to the Mithrils I voiced that opinion. Apparently, what I got was a half-assed answer!

I really would not have had problems having been completely excluded--I didn't want to cause any trouble, or for people to have the perception that you got from it all.

I really hope that you are able to find time to edit and revise your fic because I think it can improve remarkably through such a process. For a first fic, it's impressive but there are always things that need to be tweaked or out-and-out torn apart and redone from the ground up. (And don't I know it!) <==inveterate reviser[/quote]

I am going to have to, because I started writing the prequel to the story, where I found myself hemmed in by things I'd established in Captain, minor plot points for the most part. I had to decide whether I was going to accept those constraints or simply write Blackbow in the best way I knew how (and I think I have a better idea of how to do it now), and then revise Captain to fit. For example, I had intended to have Boromir be very peripheral in this second story, since Heth only mentions him a couple of times in Captain, but Boromir had other ideas, marched right in and sat down. So I am going to have to amend things to reflect his increased presence. Though I'm not going to do anything major until I've finished Captain and let it sit and stew for a couple of months.

[Levade]